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Germany

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Oct 22, 2014.

  1. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Double quantity from Strategic Resources, and 3 extra votes in the World Congress.

    While not extremely interesting this feels like a really solid UA that will need some adjustment to better fit with CSD

    Unique Unit: Panzer - stronger faster tank unit

    Never been a fan of this one and would rather see some earlier UU instead or something that is more german iconic. Honestly I'm not even sure why they keep having Panzer as the German UU considering german tanks weren't really anything special. Mostly just the same all over the world.

    Unique Building: Hanse - extra production per city per trade route with CS

    Been a huge fan of this building ever since it was added, not much to say about it really, CEP didn't change it and I don't see why we should.
     
  2. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Agreed that the Hanse is a good, flavourful, solid building - it's an all around winner.

    I think, flavour-wise, the Panzer is supposed to represent the Blitzkrieg tactic - sudden, fast attacks, not superior technology (that is actually true for a lot of uniques). I don't care much for a UU that late, though - but it's a bit better in BNW since you have less early wars and actually get to the later game more often. Either way, I don't care too much about it either way.

    For the UA... I don't really like the CEP one, I'd vastly prefer leaving the resource doubling to Russia (I'm not a fan of Russia's CEP UA either), whereas I'm quite torn on Furor Teutonicus: It's a really fun ability, but it is useless after the early game.
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Isn't it nice when we all agree? Much less writing needed :D.

    Just going to take the moment to mention that anyone may comment on this if they want, if you totally hate the Hanse for some reason feel free to voice your opinion and we might figure something out.

    You might be right about that, but it still feels wrong, this is Bismarcks germany, not the third reich. And yes I know that Bismarck and Bismarcks Germany had nothing to do with the Hanse but I'm just trying to find some good excuse to scratch the Panzer.

    It was kinda given to the Huns however :D. And I personally hated it.
    As for the CEP Russia UA I haven't really gotten to it yet, but it is extremely solid actually.
    And about the current German UA, the extra strategic resources is there for trading, it is probably not the best idea ever but I'm kinda flat out of ideas for replacing it. The extra votes however I do like, having a lot of say in the first world congress votes is totally nice. It falls off a bit later, especially with CSD since there are a lot more votes avaiable but it is still something.
     
  4. Gp_123

    Gp_123 Chieftain

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    I Think the Realpolitik ability (designed by FramedArchitecture in his UA Mod)
    While at peace,Surplus Happiness provides production in the capital,while at war,surplus happiness is added to the culture output
     
  5. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    This is kind of stepping on the toes with one of the aesthetics social policies. I think the big problem is that we need to figure out "which" Germany we want to represent here since there's... well, such a long history (and in Civ5 it kind of includes the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation since it had Landsknecht and now the Hanse - and the Germanic tribes with Furor Teutonicus).

    This said, I do like the idea of an ability that flips as you're at war. Something like surplus happiness to science or production would be interesting, but perhaps a but unfocussed. As I'm actually German, I'd love to see something representing "Land der Dichter und Denker" (nation of poets and thinkers) it as UA, so there's bias on my side.

    If we didn't have enough city state abilities already, I'd say go for something like "one extra delegate and +1 delegate for each 2 allied city states and friendly city states provide :c5science: in addition to their regular yields". That would kind of represent the Realpolitik part as well as the "thinker" part - as well as the fractured nature of Germany over the centuries. But then, I don't think we need more city state UAs...
     
  6. Gp_123

    Gp_123 Chieftain

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    i suggest we try to represent 1880s Germany, because like you said,Germany is a country with such a rich history,trying to represent all of them would be hard

    What do you think of this :
    RealPolitik
    While at war,Surplus happiness is added to your golden age progress,during golden ages 25% science in the capital

    UU
    Rifleman replacement (?) +1movement,doesn't carry on upgrade

    UU
    U-Boat (?)
     
  7. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I really don't think removing the Hanse is a good idea considering most people love it.

    I'd however love to replace the panzer with some kind of rifleman or earlier unique unit.
    Also I'm not completely sold on the warfocus, it kinda feels sad that all people remember germany for it warmongering. In my opinion it is like giving America torturecamps and mcdonalds as uniques.
     
  8. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    So I just declare war on one far-away city state and get the bonus constantly?

    I don't really get the idea behind a UA that triggers with war but doesn't quite help it. It just doesn't seem terribly exciting to me. I do agree that there are quite a few CS-civs already, but what we do lack is a diplomacy one (since it's hard to do and does lock you into a specific gameplay style). It also doesn't really work well together with a "Realpolitik"/war UU... (also doesn't the "Gunboat Diplomacy" Ideology kinda represent these tactics?)

    What we have so far:

    UB: The Hanse is fine since it's unique, interesting and does work flavourwise.
    UU: The Panzer is iconic for civ Germany, but then the Blitzkrieg Ideology represents what was behind the success of the Panzer armies. And Modern UU's kinda suck. So yeah, a special riflemen (called Fusilier f.e.) or bringing back the Landsknecht (cheaper, cheaper upgrades, carries on a 10% strength to upgrades) works. A second UB would feel strange for Germany, no?

    That leaves the UA which I'd like to be in the direction of Diplomacy. This would make Germany averse to war (= have trade routes with city states...) and rather tall. This is all okay.

    Instead of straight up more votes, Germany could be a) allowed to ignore World Congress votes (trade bans f.e.), b) given a bonus % towards completing projects (its better bureaucracy helps it organize a world fair better :)) or c) have an additional WC proposal. Giving additional votes based on triggers like "for every x number of friends (civs/cs)" probably isn't the best idea, too restrictive.
     
  9. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I mostly agree with what you say. The current UA looks really boring on paper, but the feeling of being able to bulldoze your decisions through early on because of the extra votes is awesome.

    Other diplobased UAs would be equally welcome, but most of your suggestions feels either too weak or too specific.
     
  10. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Thinking about it a bit, I actually think I'd like to keep the Panzer for the following reason:

    If we make Germany something more trade- and peace-oriented and somewhat war-averse (which very much fits Bismarck's attitude, by the way), then only having an unit in the modern era isn't too much a loss. Additionally, due to ideologies, this is the time where tensions are growing the quickest and wars become much more likely... and Germany can use the Panzer. This encourages going less for military early on and more towards trade until you know that the war will work or can help you getting rid of a strong rival.

    If people really hate it, though, I'd steal a page from Age of Empires and use the Teutonic Knight. The later game will have decent "toys" to play with already thanks to the Hanse and the Realpolitik extra votes. I'd find it more "iconic".

    Thinking more about it, the 3 extra votes are okay and probably fairly effective, just kicks in too late - and still not a fan of the doubled strategic resources. If we had Civ:BE's favour system, I'd say "1 free favour with each civilization", but we don't.

    So, possible ideas:
    • -10% maintenance (buildings and units): This is a simple economic boost, works whether you're a builder or warmonger. Not the most exciting but ensures that you get into the mid/late game with a strong economic position.
    • Declarations of Friendship last twice as long, denunciations half as long: As DoF actually allow some diplomacy options, it'd have some effect... but sounds boring.
    • City-state influence gained is doubled while not allied with a city state: This is all going for "Realpolitik" - ruining people's day by passive-aggressively sniping city-state allies by supplanting them! :D
    • Trade routes to city states slowly generate influence: Yes, this is a tenet already, but it'd really encourage trading and building up a diplomatic "network" for later.
    • Whenever you finish an external trade route, gain a small :c5culture: and :c5science: bonus: This is my favourite idea, it works the "Dichter und Denker" thing in I wanted and rewards you for trading, also scales with the number of trade routes which is nice.
     
  11. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Boring but effective, just as you said really.

    Not really sure if this actually would do anything, I mean the AI would just denounce you again anyways? And if you want to bring multiplayer in, this actually does nothing.

    I like it, not much else to say really. Might be too powerful or impossible to implement, but i really like the idea, if not for germany then for some other diplo-civ.

    This is one of those ideas that are probably going to land on one of the civs that need a remade UA, not because it is a good idea (actually thinking about it, just copying a tenent is plain silly and lazy :D) but because it is a solid ability and it would work. But mainly because figuring out new, exciting, and fun UAs from scratch is hard.

    Another one of those "I love it, and if not on Germany then on someone else", the idea is solid, the bonus could be made to scale with eras, the bonus could also be changed to any other yield. Food would be interesting, production would be very intersting, culture would be interesting aswell, science would be solid, gold would work but be pretty boring, tourism I'm not so sure about.
    Kinda feels like it would fit better on Morocco or something instead, this game have enough tradercivs without making Germany another one.
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Not really sure where to go with Germany. I like their UA for flavor, but it does clash with the rest of Germany's playstyle. I'm leaning towards this:

    This scales well, and is a unique interaction with the WC that we haven't seen anywhere else. Sure, it doesn't kick in until the Renaissance, but when it does, Germany has the potential to be a powerhouse.

    G
     
  13. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Realpolitik seems like a very cool idea but I think it'd need those +2 (or 3?) free World Congress votes from Communitas to really work.
     
  14. Shalvan

    Shalvan Warlord

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    I don't agree. If you get a bonus for having something, you gotta work to actually accomplish it. I said the same thing in Carthage thread about city connections - since Carthage gets them for free for coastal cities, they shouldn't get a bonus to their effectiveness.

    This is just an incentive for Germany to play diplomatically and gain relations with city states. And it fits because of the Hanse, so a big emphasis on city states.

    What is a bit disturbing about this UA is the fact that it has very weird scaling with the map size. It could be insane on duel map (where by default you have 50% votes at first, not counting Forbidden Palace), to very weak on huge maps (or TSLs with 22 civs...)
     
  15. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    It does run however into the problems of having to do something to get a return which isn't that easy for the AI. This is a point against and would make me argue that it'd need to retain either the free votes or - if you argue that it needs an earlier kick-off than the world congress - some early-age bonus. After all otherwise, all three unique components are (mid to) late game...

    (but why not?)
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Germany could retain the barb conversion for the early game, and then we could replace the land maintenance with the new ability.

    The AI is pretty good at CS diplo, especially if we bump up their diplomatic flavor significantly.

    G
     
  17. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Really don't like the idea of two completely unrelated UAs like this, kinda feels lazy. One or maybe two extra votes would probably be better in that case.

    This is a real issue. I wouldn't base it of percentage of total votes but instead in some other way. Maybe a percentage per vote based on era? or would that be a complete hell to code? :D
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    A percentage of available votes would scale, as the total # of votes grows/shrinks based on mapsize. The only 'problem' would be the rate of difference between votes earned (i.e. gaining a vote on a small map would increase your % rate more than gaining a vote on a huge map).

    G
     
  19. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Can't we make it "number of allied city states" instead of "number of votes" (of all city states/votes)? That way, the bonus works during the entire game. It might fall off towards the end compared to a vote-based one, but at this point it probably has pushed Germany into a strong position already. Works well as Hanse "theme", too.

    On top of that, you could also add a small flat culture bonus for conquering a city state, that way you could represent the German unification theme and also provide an interesting tension between allying them for long-term benefits and gobbling them up for an instant reward.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    We could, sure, though again a huge map will grant more of a bonus (unless we make it a % of total CSs allied function). The latter suggestion is already covered by the Might finisher – I'd hate to duplicate that.

    G
     

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