1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Germany

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Oct 22, 2014.

  1. Drakle

    Drakle King

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    694
    You are still only describing pillaging. Not these bands being able to rapidly move through forests far faster than other forces. Cavalry should be the flank force, not magic forest ninjas available to everybody (which weakens the civs which do have terrain bonuses promotions, like the Iroquis or Aztecs)

    Give them a pillage bonus, on top of no movement cost to pillage. That will work fine.
     
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    8,218
    As far as the Panzer goes, I will say if you play the panzer right it is an incredible force....you just have to rush to it. And then there is a good window of time in the game where you have no counters, and can crush everything.

    That said, I do agree that the UU is not the most thematic for the Germany we have presented. This is the more political and diplomatically focused Germany, not the WWII war machine Germany. Obviously civs have to cover long stretches of time but I do think thematically you could change the UU, and earlier UUs are easier to leverage for best gains.

    As far as this proposal:
    • I like the idea of putting it at Guilds, I always think having a variety of tech openers for different units creates some cool windows and synergies.
    • The cost reduction is also a cool concept, especially since the hanse gives production boosts, so this helps keep buying relevant.
    • I'm not as on board with the +25% CS against formation I, that feels clunky. I mean honestly considering its both earlier in the tech tree than a tercio AND is basically designed to mass buy and immediately surge forward....I'm not sure it would need much, its strength is not in the power of the unit but in the speed by which this unit can be deployed at a key window in the game. That is different to how most UUs work....which is why I am intrigued.
     
    Drakle likes this.
  3. Hinin

    Hinin King

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    856
    Well, they would still suffer from enemy ZOC, so no "forest ninja". The main idea would be to have a mercenary unit that is distinctly different from the cheap anti-cav Pikeman on one hand and the expensive and bulky Swordsman, but of course I'm open to all ideas.

    That would be for a dedicated Free Company thread though, if and only after the UU Landsknecht is implemented. At first, they would just get what the mercenary Landsknecht has currently.

    So remove the Doppelsödner part and keep the rest as is, or do you suggest increasing the base CS (24/25) ? I fear that more that 23 at this point of the game would be too much, but on the other hand other units unlocked earlier (like the Berserker or the Janissar) have either the same strength as the base unit or a way to increase it (bonus CS when on a pillaged tile for the Berkserker). That was the main reason I suggested this bonus against other Formation units.
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    6,273
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I like the idea of getting rid of the Panzer. The early unlock on the panzer crunches against the landship 1 tech earlier, it's super anachronistic as a Modern unlock. As Stalker says, you're either in or near a tech lead and you get the window and you have this uncounterable force of tanks, or you aren't already out ahead and the window is gone. By that point in the game, there's a good chance the game is already decided, and there is precious little a UU can do except grind losers into the pavement even harder than you would have anyways.

    I like the idea of a Dopplesoldner unique promotion; it's a nice highlight on the unique tactics and structure of the landsknecht companies. I love when promotions and little details give an opportunity for tangential learning, or hint at a deeper history that you can go look up later. I would maybe just make it a bonus vs melee and a bonus vs units at full HP. The full HP alpha-strike promotion ability is under-used right now, and to my brain it pairs nicely with the mental image of a brightly-coloured man with a 2 meter long sword sprinting at me to break my pike in half :lol:
     
    Drakle and Hinin like this.
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    8,218
    That's a cool idea, we get focused on wounded units so much promotion wise, doing one for full hp would be neat.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    6,273
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    This is kind of another matter entirely, but clearing Modern and later of all UUs opens up design space for ideology units. If someone were to, say, make a mod that added more ideologies to the game (*cough*, @amateurgamer88 *cough*) they couldn't add an ideology-specific tank, because the new ideology mechanics Replace the base unit, and it would be unacceptable to have an ideology replace a civ's unique unit or vice versa.

    Germany is the 1 fly in the ointment in that respect. In fact, I wonder if the Guerilla was chosen as Order's ideology unit because Germany got in the way of Order getting a Tank ideology unit?
    If Germany's UU were switched to the Landsknecht, we could swap the Tiger and T34 unit models in the game and give the T-34 as Order's special unit. This would be more on-brand for the ideologies, because the other 2 ideology units (Zero and B-17) replace a unit with a strategic requirement. "Guerilla" also seems a bit non-specific relative to the other 2. I get the impression from the icon that they are supposed to be Chinese Red Army soldiers?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
    FyreFly_ and Drakle like this.
  7. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,318
    Gender:
    Male
    Slightly off-topic here but I was mentioned, lol.

    I'll start working on the new victories first before getting to the ideologies. I actually think that we can do some interesting things if we clear up Modern Era and later UUs. One idea is that we group civs together and each group will have a unique unit for each ideology. Just an idea to be discussed elsewhere.
     
  8. Gizmoman

    Gizmoman Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    I don't mind getting rid of the Panzer, but I really dislike the idea of bringing back the Landsknecht. Especially not as another Tercio replacement.
     
    2506 and CrazyG like this.
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,743
    Location:
    Beijing
    Please no 4th Tercio UU.
     
    2506 and Gizmoman like this.
  10. Hinin

    Hinin King

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    856
    Welp, it's not my fault if the game goes directly from the renaissance (15-16th centuries) to the industrial era without taking a break for the 17-18th century (see the EE mod for that) :
    • The musketeer and the Carolean are too late historically to be linked to the pike-and-shot Tercio, but too soon to be a replacement for the Civil War-inspired Riflemen of the Industrial era. They're Tercio replacements only because there's nothing in between (and, to be honest, Musketeers shouldn't even be line troops, they were elite royal enforcers, but that's a base game pb).
    • The Impi is an attempt to make something a bit different, and is cleary designed as an anti-Tercio unit
    Basically, the Landsknecht is the nearest thing that we have to an actual Tercio replacement.

    Do you have a replacement idea? A unit requires an icon, a 3d model and animations. We have this colourful, flavorful unit that is out of place currently. Why not use it ?

    Moderator Action: Edited to be less confrontational. - Recursive
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2021
  11. Gizmoman

    Gizmoman Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    I mean it fits perfectly into the Authority tree, and I really don't see a problem with it. If it was taken out of the Authority tree then we'd have to find some other medieval mercenary unit to replace it with.

    As far as a replacement German unit, I really don't want to suggest a melee unit, because it's the same unitline as the 4UC german UU, but how about that Jaeger Rifleman replacement from that Germany mod? It's even almost Bismark-relevant, if you stretch it far enough.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2021
  12. Hinin

    Hinin King

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    856
    Because that would mean taking it from a JFD mod, and I am in no way a representative of the main VP team. With that idea in mind, I have no right to propose something with the assumption that it "shall be accepted anyway".

    I'm even proposing to do some work for the Landsknecht replacement to avoid such a situation.

    Moderator Action: Edited to be less confrontational. - Recursive
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2021
  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    6,273
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
  14. Hinin

    Hinin King

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    856
    In that case, we return to the base problem of the Panzer : too late to influence gameplay, and very difficult to justify any synergy with the UA. Germany deerly needs something that helps it get the ball rolling militarily, and preserve these CStates its entire playstyle relies upon.
     
  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    6,273
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    True. It's a non-starter. Same tech as the tank, after all.

    I just figured it could have something to do with trade routes, might combine with the Hanse better than the existing tank, and doesn't feel so strange in Modern era, since U-boats were very prominent in WWI
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    8,218
    Not necessarily with the U boat. You could do something with the Uboat that gives CS bonuses when your near their waters, or influence, or CS bonuses, or XYZ. And of course you could put them a little earlier than the standard sub (which makes sense historically anyway) to give them a bit more window to work.

    So the Uboat isn't crazy, we don't have a unique sub right now and there is clear historical theme for it, but we need to see the right ability suite for it to determine if its any better than just keeping the panzer.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2021
  17. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    6,273
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I do like the idea of the landsknecht because, hey! it's an Actual pike & shot unit, not just a unit within roughly 200 years of the tercio and good 'nuff! But on the other hand, it's the 3rd european tercio replacement.

    It doesn't solve the problem of the late unlock, U-Boats have much more to do with trade routes than Panzers do, so it's at least thematic. So let me just spitball some stuff and see if any of it sticks:

    U-Boat
    • Available at plastics (1 tech earlier)
    • slightly cheaper
    • +1 Vision
    • Unrestricted Submarine Warfare promotion: Gains XP from pillaging tiles and Trade Routes. Can pillage any Trade Route to Civilizations you are at war and to City-States
    So the U-boat would have much looser rules about what it can pillage, but not as free to pillage anything as Morocco. If other civs try to trade with city-states or with civs you are at war with then they are free game

    other ideas:
    • Diplomacy by other means: diplomatic missions are 25% more effective if a UBoat is stationed inside the city-state’s territory
    • Heals fully from pillaging tiles and trade routes.
    • Contributes double towards military score for AI intimidation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
    FyreFly_ likes this.
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,743
    Location:
    Beijing
    I think the Panzer is fine as-is and doesn't need replacement.

    Moderator Action: Edited to be less confrontational. - Recursive
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2021
    2506 likes this.
  19. Drakle

    Drakle King

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    694
    With VP, I think there is a bit too much focus on frontline units, which is why all the suggestions run into overstuffed categories. How about a UU Artillery. Germany did have really great artillery, and it was pretty key to a lot of major WW1 Victories. And in the War of 1871, it was German artillery that proved fairly pivotal, as their breech-loaded steel cannon, were much better than the French muzzle-loaded brass.

    So an Artillery UU. It unlocks slightly earlier to represent how they got the jump on France. And it has an additional promotion. Krupp Steel representing Krupp a major German corporation that made it.

    As for what bonus Krupp Steel gives, I'm not sure. Could be a bonus to units, so you can use them to bust open formations. Maybe a bonus to combat strength with each level. Maybe some splash damage.
     
  20. Hinin

    Hinin King

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    856
    Those are I think nice UU alternatives, but there are still problems I think :
    • Once again, those would require taking a 3d model from another mod. The Landsknecht is available immediatly, and the 3d model of the Free Company replacing it wouldn't be that difficult to do (a mix of different medieval infantry units with a loose formation and some modified dds).
    • The U-Boat is stepping a lot on Morocco toes, and would functionnaly be a better version of the Corsair from 4UC (the invisibility does a lot here).
    • Both of them still come late : Austria is already the late-game diplomacy powerhouse with good but late UUs, and we should try to distance these two as much as possible I think.
    • How to justify a synergy with CStates specifically for these two ? Usually I'm not for all aspects of a kit to gravitate around the same thing (going other directions is fine), but having ties with CStates and defending them is so important for Germany that I think here this is dearly needed. The Hanse already gives a production bonus, so having a unit whose cost production cost is reduced by CS alliance/friendship is overkill. The Landsknecht at least has a historical and thematic justification, being a mercenary band from the HRE numerous small territories and CStates.
    If the Landsknecht change is accepted, I would actually be for exchanging the UU2 (the warrior replacement, which would be on the same unitline as the Landsknecht) for one of your propositions. But for the core unique unit of the civ, something more reliable still seems better to me.
     

Share This Page