Germany

[tothePAIN]

I like the Panzer. The one tech early unlock is a bigger deal than you’re describing. Getting tanks at that point can win or lose the game. Late UUs have to be powerful - the panzer is. A unique artillery unit wouldn’t be strong enough unless it came with range and logistics, at that point in the game, tanks are the dominant unit. An early, stronger tank means someone *will* die. That’s huge.

 

[CrazyG]

I cannot emphasize how much I don't want to play a civ with a unique submarine.

Moderator Action: If you're making a statement like this, you should explain your reasons why. Simply declaring that you hate an idea is not productive to the discussion. - Recursive

 

[Drakle]

I like the Panzer. The one tech early unlock is a bigger deal than you’re describing. Getting tanks at that point can win or lose the game. Late UUs have to be powerful - the panzer is. A unique artillery unit wouldn’t be strong enough unless it came with range and logistics, at that point in the game, tanks are the dominant unit. An early, stronger tank means someone *will* die. That’s huge.

Artillery caused something like 75% of casualties in WW1 Battles, and similarly high ratios from the Napoleonic to WW2. Tanks were never really mass killers, it was about breaking sections of a line, and rushing through the gaps. Maybe there should be a general buff to Artillery line around that section of the tech tree.

 

[tothePAIN]

Artillery caused something like 75% of casualties in WW1 Battles, and similarly high ratios from the Napoleonic to WW2. Tanks were never really mass killers, it was about breaking sections of a line, and rushing through the gaps. Maybe there should be a general buff to Artillery line around that section of the tech tree.

This may be true, but gameplay wise, tanks / modern armor / giant robots are the dominant units of their era gameplay wise in VP. You can win the game on a tank rush, you can't do that with an artillery unlock (not with the same speed - range artillery will take cities but it will be slower).

 

[pineappledan]

This is probably double-dipping into the Hanseatic stuff, but maybe a unique Cog? Not sure how that would fit in the tech tree, since it's a predecessor of the caravel (cog is 11th-13th century ship vs Caravel's 15th-16th century)

Caravels are a really odd choice of medieval ship design to use as the base template, now that I think about it...

There's also just a Dopplesoldner unit that you could use as a standalone, or add into a mixed unit block with landsknechts:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/civ5-16c-doppelsoldner-pikeman-body-version.23000/
JFD uses them here:
https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire_(Charles_V)

So that's an interesting Idea. Maybe Germany can always buy landsknecht, and their unique unit is a dopplesoldner which replaces the base pikeman and augments their landsknecht? there aren't many pikemen replacements.

The Dopplesoldner could also be a crossbow replacement, carrying an arquebus:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/landsknecht-arquebusier-musketman.25343/
As before, you could also put them in a mixed unit block with zweihanders in front and arquebus in the back, and they could give a bonus to nearby melee units. That later crossbow placement makes them much more historically viable, since they bridge into renaissance and can still augment tercios until muskets unlock in late renaissance.

 

[Stalker0]

You could have the mercenary UU give bonus influence when gifted to CS....kind of giving Germany a partially unique diplomatic unit as well

 

[Stalker0]

I cannot emphasize how much I don't want to play a civ with a unique submarine.

Lets explore your deep seated issues shall we?

I can see two major reasons

• No history: Most UUs you can build or upgrade into, whereas subs you have to build them when they first comes out. This both limits their window of usefulness and means you start with no highly promoted versions of the unit, so it makes UUs at this point unattractive.
• Usability: You think the sub is just a "bad unit" and is not worth building in most cases, ergo a UU version of it would be a "waste".

So what defines your loathing for the concept?

 

[amateurgamer88]

What are people's thoughts of a German Gatling Gun replacement? Just throwing that idea out there.

 

[VampireSeraphin]

I also really like the Panzer.

With the Zero and B17 gated, there is a great dearth of late game UU.

And the Panzer rush is a devastating, and fun, stratagem, especially if combined with Zealotry so you can faith buy 6 elite panzers at a time.

 

[Gazebo]

The panzer is also classic civ.

G

 

[Gizmoman]

The panzer is also classic civ.

Yeah, and that's the only reason why it's there. It doesn't really represent anything, just the idea that Germany is that country of nazis that got destroyed in the great tank on tank war.
Maybe that's enough, but it just feels kinda silly to me.

 

[CrazyG]

Lets explore your deep seated issues shall we?

I can see two major reasons

• No history: Most UUs you can build or upgrade into, whereas subs you have to build them when they first comes out. This both limits their window of usefulness and means you start with no highly promoted versions of the unit, so it makes UUs at this point unattractive.
• Usability: You think the sub is just a "bad unit" and is not worth building in most cases, ergo a UU version of it would be a "waste".

So what defines your loathing for the concept?

I appreciate the pun, but I'm not doing a deep discussion because there's no salvaging this idea, it's going to sink. It's very reminiscent of useless units from Vanilla Civ 5 that had some history but had no gameplay impact, to the point of spending mental power trying to learn what it does is just a waste.

In general I build subs maybe 1 in 10 games? Not proposing we change subs, they do their role, it's just a niche role. They come late and can barely influence the game.

Also I can't see how someone would support changing the panzer but also support the U-boat, every complaint about the panzer applies to an even greater extent a sub UU.

I would rather start the game with 1 (not 1 per turn, just a 1 flat) than have the U-boat that has been described in this thread.

 

[pineappledan]

What are people's thoughts of a German Gatling Gun replacement? Just throwing that idea out there.

Just gonna copy my answer from another thread her for continuity.

After @amateurgamer88 asked this, I did a little digging, because I don't know much about 19th century German weaponry.
apparently the Prussians and later Germans were way behind on Gatling and machine gun technologies. In 1941 they introduced the first widely produced bolt action rifles, the Dreyse needle-gun, which gave their infantry a big edge, but by the Franco-Prussian war the French already had a much better rifle with the Chassepot. In all other respects the Germans were playing catchup to other nations' military tech.

With respect to automatic, fast-firing weapons like a gatling gun specifically, the French had the mitrailleuse, but the Germans didn't have anything equivalent. During the Scramble for Africa and colonial wars, the Germans used Maxim guns purchased from the British, until they made their own in-house knockoff in 1908.

If I may be permitted to speak in overly broad generalizations, the Prussian and German military advantage was in well-trained officers, competent leadership, and rapid mobilization, but their equipment and materiel were generally low in both quantity and quality in comparison to other powers.

 

[Stalker0]

They come late and can barely influence the game.

So its number 2 then, good to know.

 

[pineappledan]

there’s only 1 acceptable UU for a Germany led by Bismarck: the Bismarck

 

[Drakle]

Why gravitate to machine guns, when there is a perfectly solid basis for a Field gun/Artillery UU?

The options overall are

Jaeger - Existing assets, solid concept, UU infantry common, kinda overplayed

U Boat - Useless, way too late, exact same issues as Panzer but worse.

Tectonic Knight - Knights are overused as UU, and Tectonics already have a building in 3rd and 4th Uniques

Krupp Artillery - Not overused niche, but artillery is generally underpowered, so people don't want it

Hanse Cog - Not overused, but not sure what bonus would really work.

Dopplesoldner - Overused niche.

 

[CrazyG]

So its number 2 then, good to know.

Really it's both, number 1 would contribute to number 2.

But it's not just a late game thing. A unique dromon that specialized in killing other ships would be a terrible UU as well. All the successful naval UUs are effective because they can take cities.

 

[stii]

Really it's both, number 1 would contribute to number 2.

But it's not just a late game thing. A unique dromon that specialized in killing other ships would be a terrible UU as well. All the successful naval UUs are effective because they can take cities.

There are successful naval UU?

 

[Gizmoman]

There are successful naval UU?

There were at one point, but not really any more, no

 

[Stalker0]

There are successful naval UU?

Sea Beggar, Nau, SoTL.... all great naval UUs.