Germany in particular doesn't really need to go patronage to be relevant. Sure they may have a bias towards diplo-victory but it's not like patronage is essential for that either.
Germany
- Thread starter Funak
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Germany in particular doesn't really need to go patronage to be relevant. Sure they may have a bias towards diplo-victory but it's not like patronage is essential for that either.
Should, but some things, like growth, always take priority by virtue of the overall AI coding.
G
It isn't, but it sure is helpful to make and maintan CS allies. When Ramkhamhaeng struggles to have any when it's early modern era already and his good neighbour Hiawatha seems to be more interested, or at least successful, in CS diplomacy than him, Patronage could be helpful. Of course it probablty is just an observation bias, but this isn't the first time I've noticed it, either.
Anyway, there's always Alexander - the one who makes CS allies with no effort, so at least he has that going for him
Is there any chance that bias could be fleshed out a little bit more? If only I'm not the only one finds this an issue, of course.
Oh, and I apologize that this discussion has diverted away from Bismarck. Should have made a separate thread.
It isn't, but it sure is helpful to make and maintan CS allies. When Ramkhamhaeng struggles to have any when it's early modern era already and his good neighbour Hiawatha seems to be more interested, or at least successful, in CS diplomacy than him, Patronage could be helpful. Of course it probablty is just an observation bias, but this isn't the first time I've noticed it, either.
Anyway, there's always Alexander - the one who makes CS allies with no effort, so at least he has that going for him
Is there any chance that bias could be fleshed out a little bit more? If only I'm not the only one finds this an issue, of course.
Oh, and I apologize that this discussion has diverted away from Bismarck. Should have made a separate thread.
The bias exists because growth, production, military power, etc are an essential foundation for other stuff. It is by design.
G
Strigvir
Emperor
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- Sep 12, 2013
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Germany in particular has to go Patronage due to snowballing nature of UA, and UB requires trade-routes with city-states anyway.
When Ramkamjamwhatever can still benefit from friends CSes and Maria don't need to care much about alliance past the marriage, Bismarck UA triggers and works only with allied city-states, and Patronage is pretty damn good at sustaining allies map-wide.
Germany UA is a part of the growth.
Judging by design, aka UA+UB combo, Germany is supposed to be a powerhouse always hungry for more CS alliances and more cities. But alas, Ethiopia took this place.
While I agree that going for a patronage-based diplo-victory is a good solution for Germany, it isn't at all required. Their UB works fine without any allies and is strong enough that you can pretty much aim for any victorycondition. You can keep a few allies online with some diplounit spam and get a decent sized benefit from your UA without going for patronage, instead benefiting from the powerful tourism bonuses of aesthetics if you're going for a tourism-victory for example.
phantomaxl1207
King
Can we give Panzers Blitz?
We can. But should we? Is "Blitz" only 2 attacks or had it something to do with ignoring ZOC? Can't remember right now...
+1 movement feels like a good Blitzkrieg representation. Added ignoring of ZOC would be a way stronger version and make possible tenets worthless. 2 Attacks don't feel right.
+1 movement feels like a good Blitzkrieg representation. Added ignoring of ZOC would be a way stronger version and make possible tenets worthless. 2 Attacks don't feel right.
Strigvir
Emperor
- Joined
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Wut? There a lot of bonuses for allying every single CS asap, more so for Germany.
This is a freshly-found city in the Renaissance era:
Spoiler :
UA increases the gold output roughly by 400%.
Spoiler :
UA increases the culture output roughly by 700%.
Also, this is my happiness breakdown at the time the city was found:
Spoiler :
Notice how poverty and boredom are absent, because, on top giving ridiculous bonuses, UA directly reduces related unhappiness sources. I was getting small boredom penalties later in atomic era, but have never seen poverty, even though it is the main source of unhappiness for wide empires (I had 60+ cities when scored a culture victory at the atomic era).
This is the tech tree when I could adopt an ideology:
Spoiler :
Note that I skipped religion and 2 wonders giving free policies, and the religion I adopted later didn't have any culture bonuses aside from reformation belief.
These are stats of some random conquered city at the time I scored a culture victory:
Spoiler :
~Only~ 100% more gold from UA.
Spoiler :
~Only~ 500% more culture from UA.
My military center could buy a unit every turn and I could spend the money purchasing a ton of structures in other cities. The best part is I didn't invest a single point in Industry.
Sadly, the replay function bugged out, so I can't show land-grabbing tendencies, but it was ridiculous.
So Germany performs vastly better than any tall civ, while having cities at every inch possible.
As of the last few patches Germany have been receiving a steady stream of direct and indirect nerfs, actually just two(three?) of them but they were both pretty gigantic, so I would like to comment on them.
First of all, the latest one, UA got reduced from giving yields in all cities per city-state ally to just getting yields in your capital per city state ally.
This is pretty damn massive, as the way the German UA scaled was by grabbing more territory. Now it just flat out caps out with number of controled city-states, 16x3 = 48 gold/culture on a standard map, yes that sounds like a pretty big number but that is assuming that you control all city-states on a map, which is unlikely.
I can understand that the main problem with the german UA was that it scaled to insanity on bigger maps, as bigger maps had more city-states and more room to place cities. Likewise it got a lot worse as mapsize shrunk, I personally thought it was completely fine when I tried it out on a small map. Anyways since the scaling with number of city-states still exist the 'cap' is a lot higher on bigger map still.
Next up, the changes to tourism and trade-routes made the German UB pretty damn useless, using traderoutes on city-states is now even weaker, as you lose out on science, gold and tourism, which increase the other two bonuses.
Along with this change, the building itself got changed, it now replaces a custom-house instead of a bank, a change which imo would be fine. The techs are pretty even when it comes to priority, customhouse is cheaper, but banking takes you into the renaissance era, so it has more appeal.
Anyways, if you disregard the production from traderoutes, the new Hanse seems to just be a worse version of a custom-house, instead of providing +3 culture for 2 maintenance it provides +2 gold for 2 maintenance.
Anyways with these two(or three) changes I feel like Germany is getting way too weak, how do you feel about it?
First of all, the latest one, UA got reduced from giving yields in all cities per city-state ally to just getting yields in your capital per city state ally.
This is pretty damn massive, as the way the German UA scaled was by grabbing more territory. Now it just flat out caps out with number of controled city-states, 16x3 = 48 gold/culture on a standard map, yes that sounds like a pretty big number but that is assuming that you control all city-states on a map, which is unlikely.
I can understand that the main problem with the german UA was that it scaled to insanity on bigger maps, as bigger maps had more city-states and more room to place cities. Likewise it got a lot worse as mapsize shrunk, I personally thought it was completely fine when I tried it out on a small map. Anyways since the scaling with number of city-states still exist the 'cap' is a lot higher on bigger map still.
Next up, the changes to tourism and trade-routes made the German UB pretty damn useless, using traderoutes on city-states is now even weaker, as you lose out on science, gold and tourism, which increase the other two bonuses.
Along with this change, the building itself got changed, it now replaces a custom-house instead of a bank, a change which imo would be fine. The techs are pretty even when it comes to priority, customhouse is cheaper, but banking takes you into the renaissance era, so it has more appeal.
Anyways, if you disregard the production from traderoutes, the new Hanse seems to just be a worse version of a custom-house, instead of providing +3 culture for 2 maintenance it provides +2 gold for 2 maintenance.
Anyways with these two(or three) changes I feel like Germany is getting way too weak, how do you feel about it?
I think I may have forgotten to list it in patch notes, but check out statecraft finisher change. Should help Germany players a lot.
Could havet missed it, but either way. I assume it is connected to citystate trade routes, nothing else i can think of makes sense, and i cant check it right now. Anyways that might make the UB more useful but i really don't like the idea of being forced down patronage to make my UB work. Also it doesn't really change the other two points.
PurpleMentat
Videographer
Statecraft finisher:
"Recieve a Tourism boost with all known Civs equal to 20% of your current Empire-wide Culture per turn when you complete a Trade Route to a City-State."
Still losing Science, and you are pretty shoehorned into Statecraft but that makes a bit of sense for a City State focused civ. The limited yields from the UA are pretty underwhelming.
"Recieve a Tourism boost with all known Civs equal to 20% of your current Empire-wide Culture per turn when you complete a Trade Route to a City-State."
Still losing Science, and you are pretty shoehorned into Statecraft but that makes a bit of sense for a City State focused civ. The limited yields from the UA are pretty underwhelming.
That was a lot more powerful than I thought it would be, but either way. It still forces Germany down the patronage road. Imho giving certain advantages for certain trees is fine, but without city-state traderoutes the UB is worse than a normal custom house, and without the patronage finisher city-state trade routes are REALLY bad.
