Ok, lets do it this way instead then. Up until you have the patronage finisher (which is probably a good half era after you reach guilds) the UB is going to be weaker than a normal custom house.
Germany
- Thread starter Funak
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Ok, lets do it this way instead then. Up until you have the patronage finisher (which is probably a good half era after you reach guilds) the UB is going to be weaker than a normal custom house.
Ok, for half an era it is simply a Custom House. And then it becomes amazingly strong. What's the point, exactly?
Latest change for Germany actually put them in a better place, because having all yields in capital allows for some heavy-yield-stacking in that city. Also means you aren't ICS-dependent, which never felt right for Germany anyways.
Map scaling is always an issue, but it's an issue for any CS-related Civ. Catch is that more CSs also means more Civs, and more competition.
G
Atlas627
Deity
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I think he was saying that its actually WEAKER than a normal Custom House at first because it doesn't have +3 culture.
I liked that Germany's scaling meant that even conquered cities were useful as long as you had CS allies. It put them in an odd niche of conqueror + diplomacy victory. Now I'd adopt a roughly similar strategy to Siam.
Pretty much.
I liked it because at least it gave the illusion that you could get big numbers from it, now it just feels like a lot weaker version of the Siamese UA.
Besides, ICS dependent? You needed like 2 or 3 cities to get these numbers? This isn't really a better place unless you're playing OCC
True, but I think the UA tweak is potentially more useful, or at least more balanced, than the previous one.
If the issue was the missing culture on the Hanse, that's a bug, not a balance decision, I'll add the culture in the next version.
G
I think if you want it just in the capital and for that reason not scaling off number of cities anymore, something needs to be done about the bonus, sure 3 culture and 3 gold is probably really interesting if you ally yourself with a few city-states in ancient era, later than that it is laughable.
In my opinion there are two different solutions:
You lower the value somewhat and makes it scale with eras, maybe +2/+2 per era, that would at least have somewhat better staying power.
You add some more rare, harder to get bonus to it, like GAP, GAD or similar.
Fine
I take it there's no way to scale UAs like the Spy or Delegate abilities that factor in the # of City States on the map?
Gokudo01
Emperor
Bump because I want to know what you think about Germany.
I'm playing now in Emperor (oh oh
). After two really good games with korea and spain which were both super satisfying (UA, UU and UB), I played Germany. And damn, the fall was hard.
ok it's a mid-lategame civs like France or England but where is the powerspike ?
I mean the culture bonus from the UA is so weak when you have got more than 2 or 3 cities. But you can't play tall when pursuing diplomatic victory for 3 reasons :
1 - you want to control the space around your CS to avoid your trade routes from being pillaged if there is any war. If you don't do that, you will always lose your trade routes when the lunatic AI starts to attack you. And you clearly don't want to lose your TR with CS and you want to run dem even at war.
2 - The maintenance cost of Diplomatic units in CSD is insane, you don't want to lose so much gold( I went from +100 to 0 with few envoys) because you have to wait 3 turns to reach the right CS. You want to buyout this turn and finish the mission the next.
3 - Wide empire are better to compete for international project, get more papers and stack golds. I think I don't even need to explain.
So the culture bonus is just irrelevant but the golden age points are surprisingly good, even more if you are able to secure a religion ( yes religion has got some good diplomatic perks ). But religion are better when you are playing wide, more faith generation, more pressure from your cities and it's easier to reach the global population requirement for reformation.
So you can never make really good use of the culture bonus. It's just irrelevant.
The UB, Hanse is ok. It gives big advantages but it has got big weakness too. you should be able to get +20% production when you get it and it gets stronger and stronger. My only complain is that it narrows your possibilities, increases even more the need of patronage and don't bring a Huge POWERSPIKE. it's just stronger and stronger every time you get a new TR slot.
The UU, panzer. I have waited since turn 0. Now it's my turn at the Atomic era. I have seen the powerful musketeer and the overpower ship of line. Now it's my turn to get some broken promotion with some beefy stats and ...
+1 mv +10 strength(from 75 to 85 , it's a +13% strength bonus) and armor platine. you are a tanky tank
I think you understood I didn't get a really pleasant game. this is why I want to ask you what you think about Germany as it stands.
What did you feel the last (recent ) time you used Bismark ?
I'm playing now in Emperor (oh oh
). After two really good games with korea and spain which were both super satisfying (UA, UU and UB), I played Germany. And damn, the fall was hard.ok it's a mid-lategame civs like France or England but where is the powerspike ?
I mean the culture bonus from the UA is so weak when you have got more than 2 or 3 cities. But you can't play tall when pursuing diplomatic victory for 3 reasons :
1 - you want to control the space around your CS to avoid your trade routes from being pillaged if there is any war. If you don't do that, you will always lose your trade routes when the lunatic AI starts to attack you. And you clearly don't want to lose your TR with CS and you want to run dem even at war.
2 - The maintenance cost of Diplomatic units in CSD is insane, you don't want to lose so much gold( I went from +100 to 0 with few envoys) because you have to wait 3 turns to reach the right CS. You want to buyout this turn and finish the mission the next.
3 - Wide empire are better to compete for international project, get more papers and stack golds. I think I don't even need to explain.
So the culture bonus is just irrelevant but the golden age points are surprisingly good, even more if you are able to secure a religion ( yes religion has got some good diplomatic perks ). But religion are better when you are playing wide, more faith generation, more pressure from your cities and it's easier to reach the global population requirement for reformation.
So you can never make really good use of the culture bonus. It's just irrelevant.
The UB, Hanse is ok. It gives big advantages but it has got big weakness too. you should be able to get +20% production when you get it and it gets stronger and stronger. My only complain is that it narrows your possibilities, increases even more the need of patronage and don't bring a Huge POWERSPIKE. it's just stronger and stronger every time you get a new TR slot.
The UU, panzer. I have waited since turn 0. Now it's my turn at the Atomic era. I have seen the powerful musketeer and the overpower ship of line. Now it's my turn to get some broken promotion with some beefy stats and ...
+1 mv +10 strength(from 75 to 85 , it's a +13% strength bonus) and armor platine. you are a tanky tank
I think you understood I didn't get a really pleasant game. this is why I want to ask you what you think about Germany as it stands.
What did you feel the last (recent ) time you used Bismark ?
This is really just a standard issue that all civs dependent on trade-routes have. Ottomans are even more screwed because their bonus requires the route to finish before getting any benefit out of it. This is pretty much just a 'deal with it' situation.Bump because I want to know what you think about Germany.
I'm playing now in Emperor (oh oh
ok it's a mid-lategame civs like France or England but where is the powerspike ?
I mean the culture bonus from the UA is so weak when you have got more than 2 or 3 cities. But you can't play tall when pursuing diplomatic victory for 3 reasons :
1 - you want to control the space around your CS to avoid your trade routes from being pillaged if there is any war. If you don't do that, you will always lose your trade routes when the lunatic AI starts to attack you. And you clearly don't want to lose your TR with CS and you want to run dem even at war.
That's a designchoice, diplounits are only supposed to be effective with CS really close to you. Those further away are going to cost a fortune.
Sure, I agree with this, but where did anyone force you to play Tall? Sure the flat culture is going to be less useful when you build more cities, but to be fair that pretty much goes for all flat culture. In fact to make stuff even more hilarious, flat culture becomes close to useless in the mid to late-game anyways when all other bonuses outscale it. Purposely not expanding when you have the chance to was never the intended playstyle for CPP.
Don't look at me here, I was the one who got the GAP added to the UA because I felt the culture/science it provided before was just pointless (kinda like the Arabian UA is now)
It is a huge production-bonus however, even with the drawbacks. Percentile bonuses are really rare in CPP, and this one is the biggest by far.
I've been bashing on the Panzer for over a year, but no one seems to care. A unique unit that late would need to have 3 unique promotions to make up for it not being available during the important part of the game, it just plain stinks.The UU, panzer. I have waited until turn 0. Now it's my turn at the Atomic era. I have seen the powerful musketeer and the overpower ship of line. Now it's my turn to get some broken promotion with some beefy stats and ...
+1 mv +10 strength(from 75 to 85 , it's a +13% strength bonus) and armor platine. you are a tank which tanks
Gokudo01
Emperor
I was just pointing that, with germany, if you are able to have CS "inside" your empire, your TR are "safe". And to reach this point you have to expand A LOT.
It just shows why Capital bonus are not good with a diplomatic civs.
yes so you want to be near CS as much as possible => Wide => Capital culture is not good.
The UA is telling me but I'm not listening : too many voices in my head
yes but it could be better if each city got the bonus.
Ah ah, I mostly play random. I think I will restart the next time I get Germany
phantomaxl1207
King
I never considered how good the Hanse could still be - 40%+ Production per city! Give it some other TR bonus and change the % modifier to something less.
I always felt that Panzers should get a great promotion like Blitz.
I always felt that Panzers should get a great promotion like Blitz.
notque
Artificially Intelligent
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The thing I most dislike about playing Germany is that the UUs always come so late, and by that time you end up building them, and they don't really impact the battle as much as an early UU would.
I liked what JFD's Hitler did in that Great Generals could be popped for science. That gave a way to still war with a civ with a late UU and benefit, moving you closer to the late UU you desire.
The whole time I play with a late UU civ, I'm just trying to find ways to get to the UU to use them. But the best way to get there is to be a science Civ. I don't know, just a strange dichotomy.
I liked what JFD's Hitler did in that Great Generals could be popped for science. That gave a way to still war with a civ with a late UU and benefit, moving you closer to the late UU you desire.
The whole time I play with a late UU civ, I'm just trying to find ways to get to the UU to use them. But the best way to get there is to be a science Civ. I don't know, just a strange dichotomy.
As a german I really love the panzer (Pzkw VI Tiger).
I can't wait to be able to build them each game.
In my last emperor game when I got it I totally dominated my foes with it and it won me the game.
You get it much earlier than the tank and it is much stronger.
For many many turns other civs have nothing to counter it and their infantry and artillery just get smashed especially if you have the Blitzkrieg policy from authority branch.
I lost not a single Panzer division and conquered half the huge map until I stopped playing that game because the enemy would never be able to come back and winning was just about grinding it out.
My infantry and artillery were quite useless because 95% of all the fighting was done by my tigers.
And even MBTs don't dominate the panzers that much. Panzer only cost 2/3 of a MBT, have similar defensive value because promotion and are able to fight IFV/mechinfantry and all the support ground units effectivly.
Panzers are here to stay!
I can't wait to be able to build them each game.
In my last emperor game when I got it I totally dominated my foes with it and it won me the game.
You get it much earlier than the tank and it is much stronger.
For many many turns other civs have nothing to counter it and their infantry and artillery just get smashed especially if you have the Blitzkrieg policy from authority branch.
I lost not a single Panzer division and conquered half the huge map until I stopped playing that game because the enemy would never be able to come back and winning was just about grinding it out.
My infantry and artillery were quite useless because 95% of all the fighting was done by my tigers.
And even MBTs don't dominate the panzers that much. Panzer only cost 2/3 of a MBT, have similar defensive value because promotion and are able to fight IFV/mechinfantry and all the support ground units effectivly.
Panzers are here to stay!
kiwimaster
Chieftain
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- Sep 24, 2010
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- 65
Just want to chime in about the UA feeling incredibly underwhelming. Feels like a worse version of the Moroccan UA really. UB is fine and while I like having the panzer as a UU, it'd be nice if it could have a better promotion than just a 25% defense buff, which doesn't seem to mesh well with the idea of a blitzkrieg. Either a blitz or bonus vs Gun (melee) units promotion would be appreciated.
And here I was thinking the German UA was just straight up better than the Siamese one(not really sure why you're comparing it to morocco), I mean you get Votes, which is a victory-condition.
Atlas627
Deity
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I find it better than both Siam's and Morocco's UAs.
The moroccan UA have nothing to do with diplomatic victory however, that's why I did not understand the comparison.
kiwimaster
Chieftain
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The extra votes from CS allies is fine as a late game boost, especially if you're going for diplomatic. But I'm more referring to the culture and GAP to the capital for each CS ally which comes into play from the game's start when I compare it to Morocco's UA. Siam's UA may not be as good specifically for wracking up votes late game, but for most of the game it provides way better science, culture, and growth bonus compared to Germany.
Basically, I think the extra votes is good but the extra culture and GAP from CS allies is very unimpressive.
