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Get loan from AI and then declare war

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by jauggy, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I think it should act like a peace treaty: after making a trade to another civ, you cannot DOW for X number of turns (depending on game speed). This would fix the broken exploit and introduce more interesting decisions into the trading system.
     
  2. BrotherInJah

    BrotherInJah 60% of the time works every time

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    Agree.. On peace u often get some lux and it last longer that cooling down time for another dow.
     
  3. loki75

    loki75 Chieftain

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    Sometime, even with troops on my border, the AI didn't attack after the trade. So I don't think it's an exploit.
    A human player won't buy a lux anyway, but even if he did, it would be quite deceiptive of him to buy a lux and then dow you to catch you off guard, right? A tactical advantage is worth 240gold :D
     
  4. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

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    No, this would be an exploit itself to prevent DOW
     
  5. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    So I person can get 6 iron from Civ A then DoW them, capture the city, cell city to civ B, trade for the same 6 iron, getting double the iron, then DoW them capture the city and have triple the iron ...
     
  6. BrotherInJah

    BrotherInJah 60% of the time works every time

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    How..? AI will consider to take trade or to dow you. The same happens with dof, AI won't take it even if he's friendly towards you, when AI plan to attack.


    No.. You loose access in that case to resource. Neither it is upfront 6 irons that lay in your backyard, niether it is 6 iron for a x turns brining to your door every turn. Its access to 6 iron for resupply, and if you have 6 iron reserved for you troops, and u loose acces to it you can't resupply your troop with brand new swords.
     
  7. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

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    Restricts AI routine for surprise attack, easier to know when they will DOW.

    e: I'd like to add to that post that throwing one "Neutral" civ at another target will not necessarily change their plans for war against you. He or she might still go ahead with it, especially if its in tandem (agreement) with another civ or three.
     
  8. BrotherInJah

    BrotherInJah 60% of the time works every time

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    Well i think that super fast shifting moods is for 10 turns to dow that AI promissed to another civ.

    OK, maybe taking trade to preventing war is little to much, but diplo hit will be just fine. If you decided to trade and turn after backstabbing him/her, others civ should know about this and not to do the same mistake as first one did.

    About diplo hit. Once i had dof with civ that few turns after me and another civ dowed. I expected to get diplo hit from others nation but taking it from the civ that im warring arm to arm is just stupid. I did it for them, didn't i?;)
     
  9. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    It doesn't matter who DOWs. If the AI DOWs then a person would be able to fight the AI with its own resource while avoiding a resource penalty. You are creating a double standard here when trying to establish when and when not a person will have access.
     
  10. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

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    It's fine actually. Blame the bad diplomacy again.

    You should get some diplomatic repercussions doing it or when peace is reached again, the deal should continue. (it should be a part of peace negotiations so to speak) There is historic precedens for this.

    And the whole AI backstab thing is too common. More AI's should go into hostile mode just before declaring, and getting loans in hostile mode should be impossible so the whole get all his gold before he declares doesn't work either.
     
  11. BrotherInJah

    BrotherInJah 60% of the time works every time

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    What DOW..? Im talking about trade.

    see this post:

    Trade is not working tha way that King Jason says.

    And this:

    This way niether.

    King say that trade is working like this. You pay gold and receive 6 iron x 45 turns (in my game speed this is 45, may be other value in diffrent speeds) upfront. That gives you 288 stocked in your barn. So DOW will never affect this deal becouse its already done. It's wrong.

    You interpreted my word that deal is an acces for 45 turn to resource like it was a new shippment of 6 every turn for 46 turns no matter what. It's wrong too.

    Imagine that you have a car but you don't have gas, i have gas. Deal is you pay me 1000$ for acces to it for a month, so you can drive you car. In one day u can fill your tank as much as one day driving. The very next day i locked my gas station to you, you don't have gas any more to drive around. I DOW you i payed my 1000$ and you only yoused your car one day instead of month.

    That's how tradeds and resource work in civ. Recource is not an amount of for ex. iron, but how much you can dig every turn from a mine, so you can supply your troops.

    So your story of buttering don't apply here. Your knife don split into two. You just won;t get new one if this broke.
     
  12. Nukes R Us

    Nukes R Us M.A.D. Man

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    I think it should act as a diplomatic event. Anyone who is not a REALLY good friend of you get a big red flag in their disposition: "We believe you scam in your trades"

    This is only if YOU make the DOW. There should also be levels of intensity, say you declare war right away the ripples are much bigger than if you declare war 10 turns later. The civilization that you scammed extremely penalizes you trade wise. To get a loan for 300 gold, you would have to offer like 100 GPT for 30 turns.


    I think it should be diplomatic, because things like this happen in real life, and there are no "Rules" stopping war in real life. Maybe treaties that prevent war, but if a country wants to it can declare war on anyone, at anytime
     
  13. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    You can spin this exploit however you wish. You will end up saying to the AI who just conquered the city that supplied that gas to you, "Great going! I'm creating a Ponzi scheme here. I bought that gas and have it in my car. Now you have that gas supply and put it in your car too. You can even do what I did and sell it to that AI you're friends with so they can have gas in their car when you lose that city back to the original owner."
     
  14. BrotherInJah

    BrotherInJah 60% of the time works every time

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    Yes for diplo hit! But AI need tha same tools as human.

    No u did not, but i won't repeat the same stuff over and over. I give up!
     
  15. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    I do not doubt that there is gas in the car. But to make the concept work in the game, a resource involved in a trade would have to be removed from the map with every change in ownership or if it is affected by a DOW. And THEN the player would have to watch the gas meter afterwards.
     
  16. Draco84

    Draco84 Warlord

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    I think this could all be resolved with the AI not buying anything with sums of money, only GPT.

    you want to declare, go right ahead, you aren't getting your 8GPT anymore for the pearls.

    going back to the message earlier about being penalized for declaring on someone who bought your peace, I would like it if the game warned you that you haven't waiting long enough to attack yet.
     
  17. Nukes R Us

    Nukes R Us M.A.D. Man

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    GREAT WAY TO RESOLVE IT!!!

    Have the AI commit scams :)
     
  18. OmniPotent42

    OmniPotent42 King

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    Diplomacy is sort of broken as is. My two cents:
    Starting in Renaissance Era, if you trade more than 50% of your GPT, all gold buildings and specialists create 1 :c5unhappy:. This is a somewhat realistic approach to create balanced gameplay. This also happens to the AI.
    When negotiating peace, there is a new option: "resume previous trade dealings" which will return you to any embassy/lux/gold trade you had before the war. This request will be high on most AI's character flavors. If you don't have enough GPT to pay for it, you will be forced to sell all non-gold buildings until it is payed off.
     
  19. VanillaPlant

    VanillaPlant Chieftain

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    Breaking any sort of trade agreement should result in a trade penalty with all other Civs, causing them to give you less favorable deals or refuse to trade with you at all if you are a repeat offender.
    The AI in general should also value instant gold higher that gpt, but that's another story.
     
  20. AWahl

    AWahl Chieftain

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    This is a valid strategy, IRL and in game. Whether it be an opponant or an AI I have doen it mulitple times. Think late 80's Taliban vs. who they are now.

    EDIT:
    I do think it is BS that you can declare war ASAP on a civ when you meet them and they will empty their coffer to get peace within 6 or so turns.
     

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