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Get your armies away from my cities! and other diplo issues

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Dgodus, Jan 26, 2014.

  1. Dgodus

    Dgodus Chieftain

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    I've heard the reasoning behind the AI being able to ask your intentions when your army is in proximity to their borders and a player is unable to make a similar request. But the rational is bunk! I should be able to ask (especially friends!) the AI to cease their movements around my borders and through my territory. Having to constantly make counter movements to be in position to defend against an AI's strike force as it maneuvers around my territory in search of weakness is overly tedious and all together too time consuming.

    Sure this lends to some semblance of realism. However Civ is already a long and very time consuming game. Add marathon/huge and the amount of units/space we're talking about largely affects enjoyment factor.

    There are understandable situations (proximity to the Civ in question, or proximity to said civ's opponent); but surprisingly these military maneuvers occur even without those criteria (yes often times leading to no action - which is even more frustrating!)

    I see no reason why a simple "hey what's up?" diplo option is not available.

    Also. I've caught/killed your spy, and now forgiven you for it. You have no right to be pissed I asked you to cut it out (ie there should be no diplo hit!). As well, you stole from, cut it out! Shouldn't receive a diplo hit either.

    Too many diplo hits and not enough options for the player. Some are an actual hinderance (taking a hit for a perfectly reasonable request) or a downright annoyance (needing to Dow to remove a military force from your territory) which unnecessarily prolonges the game with only adding marginal flavor.
     
  2. SemperFi2382

    SemperFi2382 Mitten Marauder

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    This drives me nuts in some games, especially ones where you kill their spy multiple times, sometimes in the same Era! At some point, you have to be like, "dude, give it up" and they should be like "whelp, I'm clearly not gonna get any tech, sure I'm okay not trying to steal for the time being."

    In one game, I must have killed around 12 of Poland's spies (no joke), so it was either Declare War (He'd already been warned) or I had to forgive him. Was sheer stupidity that I had to take a diplo hit for denouncing them (mutual friends), on top of telling them not spying.

    The AI needs to stop being so single minded about trying to get tech if they are behind, especially if they are 2-3 Eras behind everyone (raging barbs + massive unhappy kept him more or less stuck). I know you're behind and all, but clearly stealing tech from me isn't working.

    As far as the complaining about the AI's Armies, you usually know they're gonna attack you long before they do because that pile of troops with siege weapons sitting on the border. Generally, I have found that in previous games the AI would just attack then and there anyhow, or like the spying would just be another lame diplo hit to the player for being smart enough to call them out.
     
  3. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    Honestly, I've never understood why people get upset when the AI steals tech from them. If the AIs are 2-3 eras behind you, they aren't going to catch up with a few stolen techs. It doesn't hurt you in the slightest, and in fact helps you because it's the only way you can level up your spies. I'm often going, "Please, steal some more tech from me! My spies need the practice for the planned city-state military coups later on."

    Asking people to stop spying on you is a negligable diplo hit (is it even a diplo hit? I don't remember it being one, but I usually forgive anyway). If they're mad at you, it will be for many reasons other than that. I agree you should be able to tell the AI to get their troops away from your borders, but the AI telling you the same is actually a mechanic I really like. They need to make it more transparent that you're a betrayer if you go to war with the civ for any length of time afterwards unless you move all your troops away from the border first (and then wait a while), but the general idea is good. After all, they do usually catch me with this request when I am planning on declaring war.
     
  4. thelesserevil

    thelesserevil Chieftain

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    I've never really noticed the 'Stop spying on me!' or 'Don't settle near me!' options to really give me any noticeable diplomatic hit. It shows up on the diplo screen, but I haven't really felt like it affected my relations too much. In fact, I've had several of them get followed up by the other Civ asking for a declaration of friendship that lasted forever and ever after that.
     
  5. SemperFi2382

    SemperFi2382 Mitten Marauder

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    There could be a lot of reasons you don't want the AI to steal tech from you. I do not think I need to list many obvious reasons to keep a civ backed into a corner tech wise. In a lower level game, the player should be 2-3 Eras ahead of most of the AI so of course it's not an issue, but it higher level games it most certainly does.

    Also, if all your spies are maxed out, then you're not gaining any more levels are you? :rolleyes:
     
  6. Dgodus

    Dgodus Chieftain

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    This. On marathon games having frigates/privateers up for 35 turns before anyone else can be a huge advantage. Although I'm not sure that the AI really upgrades their military units or just builds new ones.

    It's mostly a principle thing for me. I got them doing underhanded things and told them to cut it out. As far as I'm concerned, I don't think I should get penalized at all.

    I'm all for the "what are you armies doing by my borders" mechanic the AI has. I just think I should have the option as well to ask that. I'm not actually concerned they're going to attack - that would be stupid on their part and entertaining on mine. I'm annoyed with all the mitary maneuvering I've got to do to be in position to smush their forces as with a huge map empire armies don't need to be garrisoned and ready everywhere. Constant precautionary counter manueuvers for 60 turns is a serious drag and enjoyment killer.
     
  7. direblade99

    direblade99 Warlord

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    I hate when you honestly were moving your troops past the AI's border to attack someone else, but then like 50 turns late when you've forgotten entirely about that promise you decide to attack and boom, massive diplo penalty.
     
  8. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    It's a cool idea that completely futzes up games in practice. AI troop-near-border prompts need to never happen when you and the AI in question share borders. I don't care if I probably won't be prompted about troops if I keep all my troops hugging my cities instead of protecting my tiles. I need to be able to move my troops in my own territory.

    Here's the scene 1 turn after Shaka forced me to DOW on him (20 turns earlier than I wanted to). I was not moving my troops at him. But I did intend to war him sometime before the next three technological eras. Aside from two of the northern boats, none of my troops have moved. Can you see what convinced Shaka that I was about to invade? Ah, it's those nuclear death caravels on the southern bay, and the knight I parked on my own antiquity tile. Of course.

    Spoiler :
     
  9. LoneRebel

    LoneRebel Emperor

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    Yeah. In the first place, 1. It makes sense that most of a nation's troops would be guarding their border, so it seems pretty strange that the AI can call you out for this, especially because you can't do it to them (and the AI is the one who loves those painfully obvious "sneak attacks").

    And 2. Even if the AI did call you out, and you told them that you were only passing through, maybe you shouldn't get hit by a diplo penalty for invading them one thousand years later. The two events are separated by such a span of time that they should be totally irrelevant to each other.
     
  10. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    It is a mechanic that keeps me on my toes. I appreciate it even when it trips me up!

    The AI seems to just considers raw unit count, not strength. The caravels are on his border, so yes, they are a threat. The knight is in touching his border, so also a threat (from the AI perspective). But I think it is the XB in La Venta (neutral territory, but near Shaka’s units and clearly visible to him) that put you over the tipping point.
     
  11. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    The only needs to see a unit, whether its touching his borders or not to ask you to shift them. Moving troops through someone's borders(with open borders) can sometimes trigger the request. When that happens its a see you next Tuesday.
     
  12. victorpras

    victorpras Chieftain

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    So what's the reasoning behind this? I never really understand. It's not like the AI can't take massive diplomatic hit anyway.
     
  13. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    All precisely my point. Are my units supposed to be literally imprisoned in my own cities? They are all more next to my territory than his. The XBow might have been moved. I waited a turn after forced DOW to screenshot for some reason. This feature should have never been implemented from AIs who share borders with you in the first place.

    Anyway it was fine in my Maya/Zulu game because I obviously intended to DOW soonish (the cannons around my cities while I tech for Metallurgy are p obvious - but I was not moving into place yet, if I were then you would see workers making two more road tiles in La Venta). I was expecting his DOW all game. The reason I had units on the southern bay was because I literally could have lost a city if I let him border-grow control of that inlet and then embark too many units to kill.

    The point is when I'm parking antiquity sites and moving caravels around a neighbor who I don't intend to DOW - but now thanks to their prompt I am committed to no war for 50 turns?

    What is that time frame even based on? Is is to make sure I don't return my units to base, upgrade them, march them out again, return them again, upgrade them again, march them out again, return them again, upgrade them again, march them out again, invade on turn 45 from promise?? It's insane and it needs to go.
     
  14. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    That is not a factor.

    We can agree to disagree. The feature helps keep the game more interesting!

    Parking antiquity sites with obsolete units does not help you here. Could you not use a worker instead? Have you tried using a scout to park? (Scouts make CS angry, but maybe not an AI civ? I have not tried this.)

    I am not convinced that it ends after 50 turns. I think it is based only the movement of the triggering units. But which units are part of the trigger? And how far do they have to move? I certainly agree that this opaque aspect of the game behavior is quite frustrating.

    Between the choices of (1) leaving it alone or (2) taking it out completely, I strongly favor (1). I would like to better understand the triggering and promise-relief mechanisms. I would like to be able to make the same demand of the AI. Other fixes that I have read would result in less enjoyable game play IMHO.
     
  15. Mr. Grieves

    Mr. Grieves Wondermonger

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    The AI gets to ask that question, and we don't, because having a first strike might make up for the challenged tactical AI. If you do not want a warmonger penalty, do not be a warmonger. If you don't want a liar penalty, don't lie.
     
  16. krc

    krc King

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    Exactly. But, if you don't like the Ai troops on your borders, you should probably take the option of DoWing in order to get the first strike. I had to do this the other day when three Assyrian siege towers appeared on my border. It was clear that they were setting up for an attack, and killing a tower or two right away before the rest of their support troops were in place was clearly my best defense....
     
  17. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    Ha ha? Going to war in the game is evil and if you even do it at all then all other penalties (the penalty for moving troops defensively within or next to my own borders) are appropriate - after all a player who never goes to war isn't impacted by this feature at all! Great point.
     
  18. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    Yes, it is. It is. It completely is. DOW within 50 turns of border warning breaks promise. You're defending a penalty that completely tanks diplomacy if your strategic needs RE your neighbor happen to change over 1/6 of the entire game length.

    Why should anything in this game tie your strategy down so completely for 50 turns. It's garbage.

    That kind of answers itself. My workers have things to do. An obsolete unit is exactly who I want parking a within-borders antique site.

    ---

    I get these prompts way too much. Boats are involved. I like building boats, sorry. Moving units around - Wow I must not know how to play this game! Sometimes I DOW because yeah, I was doing that anyway within the next 20 turns. Sometimes I say no because it is just Venice haranguing me about my own healing ships because he stupidly bought a CS right next to my main coastal city - and now I better hope I don't ever DOW Venice unless I want to become public enemy of the whole world lol.

    "Yes" to prompt is essentially not a big deal because, even if I wasn't ready and some CS's get flipped, it's not any different from the AI DOWing on me, which usually was expected since that's why we build troops at all. "No" to prompt is strapping a nuclear bomb to your late-game diplomacy.
     
  19. LoneRebel

    LoneRebel Emperor

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    One problem here is that even if you haven't moved your troops at all, if the AI's cultural borders extend towards your troops without you noticing, then you could get the prompt. That doesn't seem right.
     
  20. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    No, it is not! You gave up on that (admitted long) thread too soon, and that var turns out to be about buying tiles.

    My position is more extreme than that! I am defending a penalty that can completely tank diplomacy and that (maybe) lasts the whole game! The promise not to spy lasts the whole game too, so that part is not entirely unprecedented. The diplo penalty is bad, but no worse than DOWing a friend.

    Promises not to buy tiles or settle nearby also last fifty turns. They are not game breaking either.

    Your experience does kind of answer itself. You can’t afford not to assign a worker or scout for this chore! Disband the obsolete unit to help make up the cost difference if you like. A military unit (obsolete is irrelevant to the AI) is exactly who you don’t want parking within-borders of a neighbor.

    So maybe trying doing things a little different?
     

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