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Getting rich by begging?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by JBryan314, Feb 27, 2012.

  1. JBryan314

    JBryan314 Always Watching

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    So I recently played a Warlords game with a huge terra map, me vs 11 opponents (AI), noble difficulty, since I'm still sort of new. I eventually won by diplo with the U.N., because out of the total 11 civs left (Ghandi was dead), all voted for me but two, and one of those two abstained. 3 or 4 civs declared war on Ghandi early on and he was actually holding his own fairly well due to the military ineptitude of the French, Koreans and Ottomans, until the other civs finally convinced me to step in. I easily wiped India off the map, losing only one unit in the process.

    That build up has nothing to do with my question, sorry. I found early on that a good way to get rich was to basically be friendly with everyone, and when they build up a little gold, just go to each one and ask them "could you spare this for a good friend?" in relation to ALL of their gold. Only Tokugawa would refuse (that butthole seems to hate me every game from start to finish, he abstained from the U.N. vote too). So I would just go every 20-25 turns or so and ask everyone for their gold, and 90% of the time they'd happily hand it all to me. I used this money to upgrade units, which eventually led to me wiping Ghandi out and then eventually colonizing the new world and wiping out the 12 barbarian cities too. My question is... Has anyone else gotten rich this way, by begging? I mean, I don't feel too badly since they all seemed to hate Ghandi, and I used the money, initially, to do what 3 or 4 other civs could not do, which was wipe him out.

    Another question... I've played several large games now and most of the other civs are always anti-Ghandi. Is this just a coincidence? Or do you guys get the same thing? They don't seem to like Wang Kon either and that butthole Tokugawa never likes me (or anyone else for that matter) much at all...
     
  2. King Pluto

    King Pluto Emperor

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    Begging for gold is typically used by players to secure a 10-turn peace treaty with other Civs. If you have a neighbor who plots at Pleased, asking for gold will ensure that the AI will not be plotting on your for the next ten turns.

    I've never used it exclusively as a way to amass cash, though. I don't know if the AI lowers the amount of gold it will let go as the level gets tougher, or if it's just a factor of higher-level AIs having more spare cash, but I've never been able to consistently ask for all of the gold an AI has if it's above 50 or so.

    Many AIs hate Gandhi due to peaceweights. His is the only 10, and many AI (especially the warmongers) have peaceweights close to zero, so the hatred is somewhat hard-coded.
     
  3. rah

    rah Chieftain

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    For me its demanding gold. Usually those already in trouble at war.
     
  4. Ghpstage

    Ghpstage Chieftain

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    I beg all the time, higher level AIs almost always have considerable amounts of spare cash and are often willing to part with 150-200 every 30 turns or so.
    You can even beg for cheap early game techs such as Sailing, Priesthood and just about anything earlier, or a single :)/:health: resource quite reliably.

    I demand tribute when i get in a position of strength too, except from Gandhi whom I bully all the time as he doesn't give a diplo hit for doing it.
     
  5. capnvonbaron

    capnvonbaron Democratia gladii

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    I love the point when you get so powerful you can demand gold from other civs to upgrade troops... and then kill the enemy civ with the troops you upgraded with his gold :lol: <-- maniacal laughter
     
  6. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Chieftain

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    Begging gold is a strategy more commonly used on IMM/DEI due to the fact that you will need it to research, in lower levels it's not needed. You don't have much maintenance that makes you go broke.
     
  7. JBryan314

    JBryan314 Always Watching

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    Ok. I was curious about that Ghandi hatred. I don't ever have an issue with him but I usually end up fighting him because I have 5 other civs asking me to kill him, and it sort of ends up being a good chance for me to increase my power since he is often the most powerful leader after me.
     
  8. Queebada

    Queebada Chieftain

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    I'm soo gonna try this begging tactic! :D
     
  9. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Yea, if I need money I go ask everyone that likes me for crap. :lol:
     
  10. JBryan314

    JBryan314 Always Watching

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    King Pluto, you mentioned Peaceweights? Where do I see that?
     
  11. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Chieftain

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    They are a hidden feature in the game. You have to view the XML to see them. Like Ghandi has a high peace weight, while Shaka has a very very low one.
     
  12. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    There was even a guide on begging from AI somewhere, forgot the link... Main part was, that AI has a certain chance to forgot that you begged something, after 20T it's at 70% or so, and that that's nearly the optimum number of turns to ask again for something. Don't ask to often or you will fail, don't ask to late or you won't get max benefit.
     
  13. auagxa

    auagxa Chieftain

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    I am interested on what is the optimal number of turns to beg successfully but I can't seen to find the guide you are talking about.
     
  14. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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  15. auagxa

    auagxa Chieftain

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    Thanks! Now I see a new way to both cripple the AI and benefiting yourself.
     
  16. pomthom

    pomthom Drive & Reverb

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    Optimizing your begging is very interesting to take the most out of the AIs' pocket money (especially with many AI opponents) which can be crucial an IMM+ to finance your medieval research and/or wars.

    However, begging also grants you another invaluable asset on those levels: the 10-turn Peace Treaty. Obtaining a Peace-Treaty can be critical to avoid bribes & peace-vassaling, or simply to gain 10 additional turns to prepare for War.

    So the 24-turns rule optimizes the Gold income you can beg, but it does not take into account the Peace-Treaty opportunities you may lose when begging too often. I am therefore very careful about begging if I am 20 turns away from declaring war or if I'm feeling threatened by my neighbours.
     
  17. Lennier

    Lennier Chieftain

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    Does that vary by game speed?
     
  18. Ghpstage

    Ghpstage Chieftain

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    Extremely unlikely. Virtually nothing scales at all, let alone correctly in this game.
     
  19. Lennier

    Lennier Chieftain

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    Whip anger scales with game speed. Peace treaty times do not. What scales and what does not is non-obvious.
     
  20. Ghpstage

    Ghpstage Chieftain

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    Looked into the code to find out for certain, and it not scaled.
    Spoiler code if anyones interested :

    Spoiler vassal related not really relevent :
    if (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).isVassal(GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getTeam()) && CvDeal::isVassalTributeDeal(pOurList))
    {
    if (AI_getAttitude(ePlayer, false) <= GC.getLeaderHeadInfo(getPersonalityType()).getVassalRefuseAttitudeThreshold()
    && GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getAtWarCount(true) == 0
    && GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getTeam()).getDefensivePactCount() == 0)
    {
    iOurValue *= (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getPower(false) + 10);
    iOurValue /= (GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getTeam()).getPower(false) + 10);
    }

    To this point its setting out the 3 different versions of 'grants', these being, vassal tribute to masters, and that 'grants' aren't auto-refused at this point, unless diplo is lower than Pleased AND the AIs power is at least 4/3 times yours.

    Now this is what your after, all thats important here is the lack of any game speed modifiers. MEMORY_MADE_DEMAND_RECENT is an XML function thats just a dice roll.
    Interestingly the way its written leaves it open to the AI remembering multiple begs at once, may be able to test this.
    .
    This is how the amount they are willing to give is calculated.
    (Number of turns you've known the AI +50) * 2
    The *2 is handy because the value comes out in AI 'credits', which IRRC are worth half a gold each when an AI isn't strapped for cash making this cancel out
    Multiply the new number by ((your power+100)/AI power+100))
    Take away the total grants previously received

    *3 if land target.
    Land targets being those sharing 8 or more tiles of culture borders. Not sure if the *3 replaces the *2 you would otherwise use earlier. Getting 3 times as much from neighbours would be worth knowing about, will need to test this!
     

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