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Getting started at Monarch

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by GeneralAchilles, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    Hey I am new to the civfanatics community, I have played a successful Regent game in pangea map, multiple successful games on easier difficulties and I moved on to a Monarch Contient map game. I was doing ok in the beginning having equal army strength as my contient rival and had two successful defensive war campaigns (I didn't have iron resource and couldn't go on the offensive however I lost about 3-4 units while my opponent lost 2 medieval units and about 4-6 and perhaps more archer,warriors), thing is in order to achieve this kind of success I had to barricade (worker action) 3 tiles to "close" the entrance to my opponents offensive with 1 spear in each tiles and getting reinforcement of horsemen from my other cities (most of them were veterans as were the spears). My worry is that I am falling behind in science and military might and I know I can perhaps hold on the defence with my barricades but I also know that when my opponent starts creating multiple ships to attack I will be in trouble. Is there any way to catch up in science and will I do ok without the iron resource or should I make an offensive war (the iron is close to my defence line).
    Some things I forgot to mention:I am playing as the Japanise my contient rival are the Incas I also made contact with the Iroquois (they are also more advanced in science) in another contient.
     
  2. Takhisis

    Takhisis Would-be overnight hero

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    If you have no Iron you should go for Longbowmen straight away and then for. Can you realistically get the wonder to produce Templar Knights instead (requires the Chivalry tech)?
    Try to trade for as many techs as you can, and use your Horsemen to raid the enemy's Iron-producing tiles. You can get the Incas onto the negotiations table if you destroy their tile improvements.

    And welcome to CFC!
     
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  3. r16

    r16 not deity

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    ı always play at Monarch and always get the Great Library or its equivalent in the scenario , at least to deny it to AI civs . Sure it will be lost with Education , but it's also 4 or 5 sciences or far more in one turn . You should have a couple of productive cities anyhow .
     
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  4. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    Hey thanks for the reply the knights templar and statue of zeus are both taken (actually this is the first game which I didn't manage to get any wonder as I was struggling in technology). I didn't really think about pillaging his iron and I also didn't consider the bowmen for the offensive (wanted to go for knights but I found out that the Japanese have the UU samurai which sadly requires iron), I will attempt to pillage and also conquer his iron supply along with his city and thanks for welcoming me to the community I really like civ3 and wish to partake in this community!
     
  5. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    Unfortunately I couldn't create any wonder in this game the Al was simply to ahead of me It's true that the GL would have really helped in this game ( the Al is like 4-5 science advances ahead of me).
     
  6. tjs282

    tjs282 Whale snark...

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    Assuming you've already switched out of Despotism (which you should have, if you're already in the Middle Ages!), did you choose Republic or Monarchy as your government? (I would hope you didn't choose Feudalism, without having a very good reason to do so!)

    Because at Monarch-level difficulty (and how careless of Firaxis to use nearly the same term for both a gov-type and a difficulty... :rolleyes: ), the low corruption and commerce-bonus you get under Republic (in conjunction with the lowered corruption from the Forbidden Palace, which also should have been built by this point) should bring in enough gold/beakers to support any excess units, and still let you start pulling ahead in tech fairly early on in the Middle Age. At the very least, even as a non-Scientific Civ you should still be able to keep up with the tech-leaders; you certainly shouldn't be getting left behind.

    For your current game, if you're in Monarchy, and you already have access to 2-3 Lux-types, and you aren't currently at war (possibly even if you are), it's likely worth switching over to Republic immediately (only 2 turns lost, as the Religious Japanese) and staying there for the rest of the game (just use the LUX%-slider to counter any War-Weariness). If you are running a Republic already, then it would be helpful to post a screenshot(s) of your current empire — or better, your most recent savegame — for us to have a look at it, if you want more focussed advice on how to improve your situation/gameplay.

    Until then, here are the usual suspects for economic struggles when levelling-up:
    • Not enough Workers
    • Not building enough roads/ non-optimal tile improvements (especially during the first 100 turns or so)
    • Building too many (unneeded) units (especially building more defenders than attackers)
    • Towns founded too slowly/ too far apart (City-tile-tile-City is fine in the early game)
    • Too many shields (and subsequently gold-per-turn) sunk into (unhelpful) buildings (including Wonders!)
    • Staying in Despotism too long during the Ancient Age (do you know how to leverage the 'Republic-slingshot'?)
    Also, a tip for posting on CFC: if you want to answer several different posts at once, rather than multi-posting (which is frowned-upon by Those On High), use the '+Quote' button at the bottom right of the post-box, then add all the quotes to a single post at once (you can also highlight specific parts of a previous post to add to the multiquote-list).
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  7. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    Thank you for the quote tip! It's true that I had stayed longer to despotism than usual and I had not given in to the demands of the Incas so I could not switch right away because I was at war, I managed to sign peace, however they still demanded and I refused (I admit that I shouldn't have rejected both demands, but I thought they wouldn't attempt war so soon again).After the second war had end I switched right to republic (had researched it a few turns in the 2nd war) and about 3 turns later the Incas declared war yet again (even though I made some deals with gold per turn with them and I supplied them 2 luxuries), at this point I am 2-3 sciences behind the al I have also met the Sumerians but they didn't last long the Iriguois had wiped them out and now without iron I tried to develop saltpepper to create muskuteers and defend my cities, and so I did. Well I have neither iron and suprisingly neither saltpepper my people are rioting due to war weariness, the Iroguois have also done what I fear they brought reinforcements with ships and have take 2 of my cities. I have created a few longbowmen like the community suggested however I don't know how much they will help at this point (and I couldn't make alot of them I think I have about 6). Most of your above points are valid I didn't make enough workers in the beginning focusing exlusively on settlers and war units, I made a lot more spearmen than archers, some horsemen, my city placement was mostly city-tile-tile-tile-city, I connected my cities but not early on and I didn't make any wonder (I believe this to be the biggest mistake I had made). I will see how things will go in the next 5 or so turns and perhaps I will start over if defeat is inevitable (luckily I started on tiny map to see what monarch is like and so I didn't waste much time).
     
  8. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    It seems very unlikely that defeat is inevitable. Post a save and we can look at it.

    Make peace as soon as possible. Until then, run up the lux slider and hire specialists as necessary to keep your people working and your economy afloat.

    Not building any wonders is generally a good idea, but lots of spears is not good.

    I'd add to tjs282's list: not trading well with the AI. To catch up in techs, you'll want to trade a lot with the AI. You need to research what they haven't, buy from the advanced nations and sell/trade to the less advanced nations.

    When entering the industrial age, the AI will all go research a bunch of optional (read: useless) techs. This is your chance to pull ahead of them. Even if you don't have any resources, if you can get to replaceable parts, you can attack with artillery and guerillas with good success.
     
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  9. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    I can't really post the save file because althought it opens up ingame in the conquest file it doesn't appear (I backtracked it). I can give you the basic information and some screenshots if you'd like:
    My army consists of 1 worker (I had more but I converted them to citizens), 5 warriors, 4 archers (need cash to upgrade them), 10 spearmen, 7 horsemen, 9 longbowmen, 1 catapult, 2 trebucket.
    In scientific achievements I have all the ancient era techs, in the middle era I have monotheism, theology, feudalism, chivalry, education, engineering, invention, gunpowder (no saltpepper), chemistry and right now I am researching mettalurgy to get to military tradition ( I have horses) my luxury and science ratio are both 20% btw and I am making 24 gpt like this. I forgot to mention that the Iroguois have all the techs I have and in addition they have: printing press, music thery, banking, astronomy and metallurgy as far as I know, about the Incas I don't have any recent information since I am curently at war with them however I believe them to be in equal scientific footing.
    Also it seems like the Incas have 2 resources of iron one close to me and one in their capital (and I believe the have saltpeter as well), about the Iroguois they have only one resource of iron and one of saltpeter.
    I also took 7 pictures can I add them here or is it prohibited?
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  10. tjs282

    tjs282 Whale snark...

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    Putting out Settlers is (almost) always good: in general, more cities = more everything! But yeah, that only happens if you also develop the land around those cities! So for your next game, for every new 'core' town you found, you might want to try making your first builds a Warrior (to keep at least one citizen content) and then a Worker (to improve that town's tiles).

    If the town is getting 2 food excess and 2 shields per turn, you can finish both builds within a single growth cycle, Pop1 to Pop2: the Worker-build will drop the town back to Pop1 with an empty food-box, but now you can build a better mil-unit over the next 10 turns (an Archer or maybe Spear -- but see below), or start putting your first building into that town (e.g. if it's food-rich, build a Granary for fast regrowth, and use it to build more Settlers/Workers; if it's shield-rich, a Barracks for veteran units: if it's coastal, a Harbour for more food/ veteran boats; or if it's in your second-/third-ring, a Courthouse to reduce corruption for all subsequent builds, etc.)
    This first is likely why you're getting bullied: If you'd had, say, 2-3 Archers/Horses per Spearman, rather than vice versa, the Inca would probably have feared you more, making them much less likely to try their extortion in the first place.
    Depending on which direction you're working in, this may be a little loose. Your towns can't get bigger than Pop6 without an Aqueduct (late Ancient), nor Pop12 before Hospitals (early Industrial), so packing your towns tighter in the early game might well allow you to make better use of more of the low-corruption tiles nearest your capital.

    Say you found towns at C1-x-x-C2-(x)-x-C3: once you have Sanitation, you can build Hospitals in C1 (and later C3), while shrinking down C2 by building Worker/Settlers out of it -- which could then be added straight to C1 and C3 to get them quickly to Pop20, leaving you with C1-x-x-x-(x)-x-C3.
    Tut-tut. :nono: ;) Connecting (outer) cities back to the capital reduces their inherent corruption (and gives Happiness from any Luxes you've connected), making them more productive, earlier on. (Ideally, you should have a road all the way out to your next planned city-site, before your next Settler is ready to roll.)

    And connecting the outer towns to each other allows you to shift your forces between (border)-towns much more easily in response to AI/Barb-incursions, allowing you to defend yourself using a smaller total pile of (fast) (attack) units. So building roads should be a high(est)-priority job!
    No, not really. Unless you're going for a Cultural victory, then you don't really need to build any of the Ancient Wonders, most of whose effects expire pretty early (Colossus and Pyramids are really nice to have, though!). And at Monarch+, expansion and war in the early game can actually net you more of those Ancient Wonders than hand-building them yourself will do -- because by putting all those Wonder-shields into units instead, you can let the AI build the Wonders, and then steal them!

    Once you've got a decent empire up and running in the Middle Age, then it might be worth considering some some strategic Wonder-building, because once you've got the tech-lead, you'll almost always get any Wonders built before the AI can.
    This actually makes things harder for you! For any given difficulty level, the territory gets filled up at a fairly constant rate (and remember, the AI always likes to found towns in a C-x-x-(x)-x-C pattern), but the smaller maps actually have fewer land-tiles per Civ than the larger maps, so they fill up that much quicker. And once there are no more 'good' city spots to be got peacefully, that's when the AI-Civs go on the warpath.

    Also, number of each resource-tile initially spawned is directly related to the number of Civs placed at the start of a game (give or take a fudge-factor of plus/minus 1-2; this fudge-factor's effect is therefore disproportionately magnified, the smaller the starting number is), so smaller maps = fewer Civs = fewer resource-tiles = less likely that you will have any given resource handy to your starting position. And the AI-Civs also 'know' where all the resources are from the beginning, even before they've researched the tech needed to show them (to you). That's why they hustle to settle Tundra and Desert: it's for the Oil and Uranium they'll 'discover' there in about 4000 years' time!
    MilTrad won't help you (EDIT: much) unless you have Saltpeter as well...
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  11. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    Okay I will focus on your advice in my next game (which will be a standard map this time)! Shoot I didn't know I needed saltpeter for military tradition :(, oh well at least now I know.
    I will see the game to the end even though I know there is no way to win like this but I want to see how It will go.

    Thanks to everybody for their advice I really appreciate it guys!!!
     
  12. tjs282

    tjs282 Whale snark...

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    Well, you don't need Saltpeter for the tech itself, but you do need it to build Cavalry, so without (any hope of grabbing some) Salt there's not much point going for MilTrad per se -- you'd be better off putting your research-efforts into getting Industrialised, and then bee-lining to Replaceable Parts (i.e. Guerillas if you don't have Rubber, Infantry if you do; both A=6 like Cavs, but much better defenders).

    OTOH, if you can manage to grab an AI-Civ's Saltpeter-city using your Poor Man's Army, and have a bunch of Horsemen ready to be upgraded in a Barracks-town, plus the gold to do that, then MilTrad becomes very powerful indeed... (Did anyone build Leo's yet, and if so can you reach/steal it easily?)
     
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  13. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    I see. Yes the Incas build Leornado's Workshop along with many other wonders, but the city is their capital and It's in the middle of their empire far from reach with what I now have (I can barely defend as it is). I will give it a try and I think you are right I will finish my research in metalurgy and move to another tech (I can always buy military tradition later on anyway).
    Update: guys thanks for all your info I really appreciate it. Sadly the war was lost at 770AD. I made a war pact with the Iroguois against the Incas but they made peace after 5 turns or so with minimal combat and I couldn't make peace with the Incas since they didn't let me speak with them. Oh well It was my first try on Monarch, I will play next as the Romans in a standard map and if I need any help I'll post.
    Again thanks to everyone for all their help!!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  14. Takhisis

    Takhisis Would-be overnight hero

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    up yours!
    Pillage all their resources if you can. They'll have to divert efforts to the reconstruction of their economy and it will weaken the AI's position during negotiations.
    Why would you dispose of workers that way?
    Don't waste money on upgrading. Just get new units. You'd be surprised at how useful an ordinary 2.1.1 archer can be. And don't waste resources on artillery at this stage. The archers you have will provide defensive bombardment capability and dedicated units such as catapults and trebuchets are simply not worth the expenditure at this point for the damage they can provide.
     
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  15. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    I was at Despo and my economy wasn't very good at this point (I was also above the allowed units) so I had a defict in my economy and I had to do something (I also selled some libraries that I had build in my cities with 6 citizens and above).
    Noted about the upgrades and the catabults/trebuckets (I wanted to attempt an offensive blow to my opponent with them, I wanted a bigger stack of them but I didn't get the chance).
     
  16. tjs282

    tjs282 Whale snark...

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    Strictly speaking, you're not at deficit until you're in danger of running out of cash during the next interturn. Saving up for a rainy day is all very well, but (in Civ as in life) you don't win any trophies just for accumulating the biggest Pile'O'GoldTM. It's there to be used, after all.

    While Worker-joins are not always a bad idea — if they have nothing better to do, and if you have cities which would benefit from having those extra pop-points sooner than natural growth would have gained them — doing them while you still have tiles needing improvements, and/or while you're still expanding... well, that's totally false economy. If you're seriously hurting for cash because of excess unit-costs, then it would be better to BUILD MORE CITIES (the only truly useful piece of advice any of your Advisors ever gives you!). Failing that, disband your Warriors, or maybe some non-frontline Spears, but DON'T get rid of your Workers :nono:

    True, it may save you a little cash over the next turn or two, but you're going to start feeling the downside not long after that, as your cities continue to grow — indeed, have grown as a result of the Worker-join(s) — but may/must now start working unimproved tiles (i.e. no extra road-commerce, no extra irrigation-food, no extra mined-shields). So economic output falls across your empire, leading to a downward spiral of lowered research-pace, increased unhappiness, slower unit-production... the latter leading to more AI-bullying, more costly wars, and likely increasingly desperate further cost-cutting measures.

    And as for selling your Libraries (which will be expensive to replace, especially if you're not Scientific), you'll just fall even further behind in tech — better rather sell your Temples, Colosseums, Cathedrals... ;)
    I actually disagree with @Takhisis a little on this point. Sure, I'd agree that if you can build decent (i.e. Iron- or Horse-requiring) Ancient and Medieval units, then putting shields/gold into bombard-units (as well or instead) is usually a waste. But if your PMA is (mostly) restricted to (resourceless) foot-units (M=1) anyway, then adding some bombard-units to that mix can be a literal lifesaver (bombardment also becomes more and more important as you approach the Modern Age, and/or as you increase the difficulty). Also, upgrading Cats —> Trebs is 'only' 30g per unit, half the price of Archers —> LBMs.

    Trebs' B=6 can almost always knock 1 HP off every same-era unit they encounter, both on 'attack' (i.e. bombardment) and defence, and the AI will usually retreat 'yellow' units. Conversely, Archers' and LBMs' B=1-2 defensive-bombardments are much less likely to injure incoming Swords/ Maces/ Archers/ LBMs*. So having some Trebs along with your Spear + Archer/LBM-stack will likely help keep those Spears alive long enough to defend your PMA all the way to the gates of your (first) target-town(s)—especially if you try to take the shortest route** which keeps your stack(s) on high-defensive terrain as much as possible***. Not to mention, once your stack arrives at its destination, the Trebs can also do some damage to the defenders before your LBMs+Archers do their stuff.

    And taking towns is what Civ3-warfare is all about: if all you've been doing is picking off their incoming units, the AI will be much less willing to offer concessions when they finally become willing to negotiate (which will also take longer). You have to hurt them, and that means taking their towns (even if you don't keep them), pillaging their resources, collapsing their war-weary Republics back down to Monarchy/Despotism, etc.
    Spoiler New war tactics for you...? :
    *When war breaks out, most of the AI-Civ's fast-attackers will arrive over your borders earlier than their foot-units will, so it's worth taking that opportunity to kill/injure as many of these (more dangerous) units as possible, on your territory, where you have the 3-fold movement advantage; once the 'second wave' of foot-units has retreated, that's when you push forwards into their territory, where their (fast-)unit movement is magnified...
    **Running a Republic, you'll need to minimise war-weariness, so that means minimising time spent on enemy territory. If you're slogging on foot, you will likely be forced to take towns that you don't want, just to get to the one(s) you do, so try to make sure you have sufficient units to do that before you start a war (or allow the AI-Civs to drag you into one)
    ***All the above notwithstanding, if your most direct route crosses unroaded Jungle/Mountains, you can't take Trebs along, so just make extra Spears and LBMs...
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
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  17. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    I didn't explain correctly the deficts thing... I had used all my money to upgrade units (I know now wrong move) and I was getting negative income with zero gold in my treasury while I was at war. I had most of my tiles irrigated and beeing at war I thought It would be best to put some workers in my cities to reach the unit support limit instead of disbanding my spears (which were the only thing leaving me alive at the moment) and attackers. I took some pics at the age 600AD I will upload them to show everyone how bad my condition was at that point (I put them as thumbnails I hope they are okay like this not taking much space If they aren't allowed I will delete them just give me a word)
    01.png 02.png 03.png 04.png 06.png 07.png
    As you can see I could not expand anymore as I had not anymore space (perhaps I could fit some cities between other cities) and the Incas had conquered two of my cities so I had to face knights, medieval infantry and pikemen from the borders and I had medieval infancys from the other side with not enough units to reconquer.
    The game ended at 770AD with me getting eliminated.
     
  18. Takhisis

    Takhisis Would-be overnight hero

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    Well, tjs282 tends to employ different tactics so with his the artillery might be useful. I agree with him on strategy though: you have to take the war to the AI if you can. That's why I suggested pillaging their resources and roads. One or two tiles of road destroyed can mean their armies take ages to get to the right point, if you destroy the right tiles.

    tjs282 is spot-on about the worker-joins so I won't expand on that for now.

    And, seriously, you cannot complain about being behind in technological development if you are getting rid of your libraries and your civ isn't Scientific.
     
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  19. r16

    r16 not deity

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    am not an expert and my victories come only through that ı save a lot and can turn like 100 turns back if need be , but Colossus and Great Library are really achievable at Monarch level . Never do Pyramids , because ı know ı will not be able to micromanage so many cities and ı located like the first 5 cities carefully . There are cases that ı play 100 turns simply to locate resources by developing necessary techs . Saving a "map" and returning to 4000 B.C. with like inside info .

    looking at the screenshots it seems you can use ships profitably . While difficult if the AI has superior tech , you would have galleys by now . Load 10 units , 2 spears and 8 offensives perhaps and land at the city behind the lines . You might need two empty galleys so that they will be the first to be attacked and their loss will not mean much to you , except those 30 shields per . Grab a city and offer peace . Better than nothing and AI is extremely retentive . Might stop invading your core and take his 100 strong stack to recapture the lost city . (Real nice to have get your new city surrounded by an invincible host and offering it to a different AI , before you lose your invaders, too .) ı have a screensave where the AI chases one single redlined unit of mine , with (ı think) 260 units . They stopped marching onto my cities and started moving in that particular direction and ı just had to count them ...
     
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  20. GeneralAchilles

    GeneralAchilles Chieftain

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    I wanted to go on the offensive and pillage their resources and improvements, It's just that I couldn't at this point I had to protect the border city and It had barely enough units I also putted a wall and barracks, now that I think about it perhaps I should just left my others cities undefended with only a horseman and put all my military might in the border city to push for the iron.

    Yes I know selling the libraries would put me behind in science however I believe at that point I had my science slide at 10-20% and I could even lower it or sell libraries I still don't know if I did the right thing (I was republic and didn't want to sell temples since they kept my citizens happy).

    I see, I didn't think about going on the offensive like that and I also like your idea about giving the city to another AI as a buffer zone :).
     

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