tebriz
Warlord
WOW!!! So quick and right before I was going to start a new game. You are my hero man!
Gigantic Earth map with only 1 starting civilization / Barbarian cities spawn
- Thread starter tebriz
- Start date
tebriz
Warlord
I have one more question regarding the situation when you start playing alone...
Can you explain how new emerging civilizations get their starting technology level? I thought first spawned civilizations would get exactly my level of technology since I am the only present civilization in the world, but they start much more advanced than me...
So, does my technology level affect their starting level of technology in any way?
Or does it depend on current year (turn), meaning that if I am “backward” compared to current turn (% of game that has passed) and have neglected technology, it will punish me by spawning civilizations that are more adequate for the current progress of the game?
Can you explain how new emerging civilizations get their starting technology level? I thought first spawned civilizations would get exactly my level of technology since I am the only present civilization in the world, but they start much more advanced than me...
So, does my technology level affect their starting level of technology in any way?
Or does it depend on current year (turn), meaning that if I am “backward” compared to current turn (% of game that has passed) and have neglected technology, it will punish me by spawning civilizations that are more adequate for the current progress of the game?
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tebriz
Warlord
In my case:
1) there is no other AI yet;
2) as far as I know, barbarians can’t be more advanced than the most advanced civilization (which is me, since I am the only player);
Then why new spawned civilizations are ALWAYS far more advanced than me?
According to your answer, the only possibility remains Neanderthal tech level... Is it different from Barbarian tech level?
1) there is no other AI yet;
2) as far as I know, barbarians can’t be more advanced than the most advanced civilization (which is me, since I am the only player);
Then why new spawned civilizations are ALWAYS far more advanced than me?
According to your answer, the only possibility remains Neanderthal tech level... Is it different from Barbarian tech level?
Neanderthal starts off with more techs than the human player on turn 0 prehistoric era. I think they tech more like a normal player too, not sure.
I also think barbarians can tech on their own, though they rarely build beaker buildings so they get free techs when they technologically lag behind enough.
Difficulty level may play a role... not sure, haven't looked at the barbciv code in a while.
I also think barbarians can tech on their own, though they rarely build beaker buildings so they get free techs when they technologically lag behind enough.
Difficulty level may play a role... not sure, haven't looked at the barbciv code in a while.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Neanderthal cities spawn earlier than normal barb cities, but stop spawning at the end of the prehistoric entirely. It's not that they have more tech, it's that they start to spawn at an earlier tech point reached by the leading civ.
tebriz
Warlord
Thunderbrd, in SVN 11219 Toffer90 has removed barbarian city spawn delay when playing with BarbarianWorld option.
This is what the Player Guide for v40.1 says:
Spawn Mechanism Adjustments
While animal spawns are based on dates to reflect classical points of extinction and ecological changes over the Prehistoric timespan, Barbarian and Neanderthal spawns are now based on the technologies possessed by the tech leader in the game. This can make them very challenging if you're lagging behind but should hold them back from dramatic out-teching you.....
I understand it as barbarians can't get more advanced than current tech leader (please correct me if I am wrong).
I have made several tests with Noble difficulty - same result. It means the issue is not related to game difficulty.
So, the only other possibility remains Neanderthal tech level. If they start with more technologies than normal players, it expains the issue:
I guess tech level of new spawn civilizations is affected by other AIs and Neanderthal tech levels (but not by barbarian tech level).
I am playing with the option that new spawned civilizations get technologies known by 50% of current players. So, in my situation let's say I have 30 technologies discovered and Neanderthals also have these 30 technologies discovered + 20 other technologies. Then, when a new civilization is spawned, it gets all 50 technologies, because the remaining 20 techologies are known by 50% of players (since there is only me and Neanderthals in game, Neanderthals alone count for 50%).
This is the only explanation I have at the moment. Please correct me after checking the code, Toffer90.
This is what the Player Guide for v40.1 says:
Spawn Mechanism Adjustments
While animal spawns are based on dates to reflect classical points of extinction and ecological changes over the Prehistoric timespan, Barbarian and Neanderthal spawns are now based on the technologies possessed by the tech leader in the game. This can make them very challenging if you're lagging behind but should hold them back from dramatic out-teching you.....
I understand it as barbarians can't get more advanced than current tech leader (please correct me if I am wrong).
I have made several tests with Noble difficulty - same result. It means the issue is not related to game difficulty.
So, the only other possibility remains Neanderthal tech level. If they start with more technologies than normal players, it expains the issue:
I guess tech level of new spawn civilizations is affected by other AIs and Neanderthal tech levels (but not by barbarian tech level).
I am playing with the option that new spawned civilizations get technologies known by 50% of current players. So, in my situation let's say I have 30 technologies discovered and Neanderthals also have these 30 technologies discovered + 20 other technologies. Then, when a new civilization is spawned, it gets all 50 technologies, because the remaining 20 techologies are known by 50% of players (since there is only me and Neanderthals in game, Neanderthals alone count for 50%).
This is the only explanation I have at the moment. Please correct me after checking the code, Toffer90.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Spawns of units and spawns of cities are different subjects. Not sure what he did or didn't change about city spawns but the above is pertaining to unit spawns.
Units can be, if spawned by events. There are some naval ones that intend to make them stronger than anything currently in development by a civ. As players, they tend to lag and then get caught up by the tech averages, if I'm not mistaken - been a while since I looked at it but IIRC, they are severely penalized in their own normal devel and then boosted by the achievements of other civs. They should not be obtaining any first to tech benefits if they happen to earn one first on the board, and if they do that should be suspect of a possible bug as well.
When cities begin to spawn is a very different system and I am not sure if Toffer adjusted anything about that or not but when I setup neander city spawning, I gave it a different tech trigger range - when any player hits a particular tech, that's when they begin to city spawn. Toffer may have changed something here and if so I don't know what he did but trust his judgement.
Barb cities and neanderthal cities should start spawning at the same time, using the same delay. The delay is removed when playing with barbarian world game-option.
The neanderthal NPC get 5 free prehistoric techs awarded to them at turn 0, and they seem to be technologically close to the tech leader throughout most of the prehistoric as far as I've seen.
Barbarian unit spawn is based on the leading player tech level.
The tech level of barbarians can be lower than the tech level of spawned barbarian units as the unit spawn is not based on the tech level of the barbarian team.
@Thunderbrd: I'm currently looking at some code and came to the conclusion that I want to remove the civic taxationAnger mechanic. It hasn't been used in C2C as far as I know, and it's a pretty awful mechanic that makes it so that having certain civics can have the effect of getting 1 turn of anarchy per 10 percent increased taxation. so If you take 100% research down to 0% to survive ecobnomically you would get 10 turns of anarchy.
At any rate, it seems like a mechanic we won't ever apply in C2C.
At any rate, it seems like a mechanic we won't ever apply in C2C.
tebriz
Warlord
@Thunderbrd Thank you for clarifying that the guide was talking about barbarian units, not barb tech level.
@Toffer90 The information that Neanderthals start with 5 free technologies is very useful, but it makes me even more confused... So, if they are only 5 techs ahead at turn 0, it is even more difficult to understand why the new spawned civilizations are far more advanced than me? It is like I am on 1/2 or 2/3 of the way to Tribalism, but new civilizations are already in Ancient Era by discovering Sedentary Lifestyle...
@Toffer90 The information that Neanderthals start with 5 free technologies is very useful, but it makes me even more confused... So, if they are only 5 techs ahead at turn 0, it is even more difficult to understand why the new spawned civilizations are far more advanced than me? It is like I am on 1/2 or 2/3 of the way to Tribalism, but new civilizations are already in Ancient Era by discovering Sedentary Lifestyle...
What difficulty are you at? After the new player spawn they can shoot away in tech if diff is high enough.
Send me the save so I can investigate if something smells bad please.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah I don't see the adjustment on the slider as the adjustment to end user taxation but more about social and governmental spending priorities of the taxation coming in. There's some kind of connection in that to rev though isn't there? I thought I'd recalled Rev having some similar kind of thread tying rev sentiment to the slider and I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not but it might be something to research into while going about that.
Anyhow, I agree with you.
Yeah, the way I see it the tax level is the same regardless of how you decide to spend, or not spend, your commerce with the percentage sliders.
tebriz
Warlord
All my last games were AI Autoplays with different settings in order to test the issue. But all of them were done on Noble difficulty. I am sending you the save of one of such tests.
P.S. I play with Neanderthal Cities option OFF (in case if this information matters).
P.S. I play with Neanderthal Cities option OFF (in case if this information matters).
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I think there is something like that in rev, that if you don't invest in the different commerce's the people will disapprove a bit. The rev system is not tied to that civic mechanic, though it seems like an upgraded version of it that actually make a bit of sense.
Persia and Rome both have a bit less tech than you, but the Celts have all prehistoric techs + agriculture, and the barbarian team have sedentary lifestyle.
I'll have to double check the code that decide the tech level of barb emerging civs. The Celts were the last to emerge after Rome, but I doubt the barbs shot away in tech that much between those two.
If the barbs did shoot away in tech like that, then I have to look at code that award tech to barbs instead.
The barbs would not be awarded free techs to be that close to the tech leader when there's two other players that far behind, barbs get free techs based on average tech progression.
However, a lot of players have reported seeing barbs being the first to discover sedentary lifestyle, so perhaps there is a bug that advance the barbs to ancient era during the prehistoric era.
tebriz
Warlord
It is not an isolated case. The very same situation repeated in every single test I have done. I did like 8 tests - but don’t have other test’s saves unfortunately. Through, I have the later saves from this test, in case you need them.
Noted, I'll for sure look into it when I have time.
