Give environmentalism a chance !

[tucnymaster]

Environmentalism is a almost not chosen civic. We should make it a little more powerful. +25% on corporations is not so bad, but they just are not enough bonuses...

First, environmentalism should be researched with biology, not medicine. Medicine is kinda long to get, and even builders are more likely to go assemblly line than medicine. But biology has kinda good bonuses, so people will be way more likely to take it.

Second, with the +2 you get, you better get a CE which is already a bad strategy. Windmills in environmentalism should have +1 food on windmills. It's still realistic, in a kinda utopian environmentalist government there should be more food created with the better balance of the food production on hills.

Third, additional +1 on naturally (without irrigation) river tiles (except oasis). It might seem much, but the 25% more on corporations is takes WAY more money than a puny +1 commerce. However if it is overpowered, maybe we could remove this.

Fourth, desert reduction. This should be the same principle as desertification with global warming. But you'd need a forest preserve near a desert.

 

[GuitarHero]

I always use Enviromentalisim. I always need the bonus health.

 

[Matty R]

Environmentalism, along with Hospitals and Recycling Centres, lets me grow my cities to their food limits. I ALWAYS use it.

 

[Bast]

It is handy. If you're financial the boost from windmills and preserves are a lot.

By that stage in the game you really do need all the health you can get. Happiness is not an issue with the culture slider but you don't have that for health so I think it already plays a big role.

 

[GuitarHero]

It's a good Civic, I can't see why anyone would not use it. It's only competition is Free Market.

 

[Diamondeye]

I agree with the other posters - why is the thread entitled like this when everyone uses Envi? I mean, the health is necessary - as you said - because of the factories and large cities, it provides a good alternative to FM.

 

[GuitarHero]

I don't use factories unless I've got a Recycling Plant. Yes, I am a Liberal, so don't even ask about the first statement. Whenever I say that offline to my friends, they won't stop bugging me about it.

 

[tucnymaster]

It comes rather late and unless you got spiritual it is usually a bad idea losing one or two turns.

Lol guitarhero you don't use factory before assembly plants ? Just have enough ressources to not have any unhealthiness.

Unless you get a SE, there's no real need to go to environmentalism.

 

[Antilogic]

I go for State Property still on occasion, although Free Market is catching up with the Corporations feature.

However, Environmentalism should stay a late game civic. It was already moved up to Medicine...don't move it up any further.

 

[Larklight]

Environmentalism is a almost not chosen civic. We should make it a little more powerful.

I beg to differ- the major health increase is very important in an industrialised world. Lots of players are switching, as this thread has shown.

Even if few players adopted this, it wouldn’t be a totally bad thing: can you name any world governments who have? The Civics are based on reality, not idealism (otherwise there would have to be different versions for each political+religious group)

Now if Coal plants contributed to Global Warming, and Environmentalism prevented this, there would be a worthwhile opening. Or if your people led revolts… Ok, wrote you lots of letters (increased maintenance costs)

First, environmentalism should be researched with biology, not medicine. Medicine is kinda long to get, and even builders are more likely to go assemblly line than medicine. But biology has kinda good bonuses, so people will be way more likely to take it.

It's already been moved back enough, and far far further back than is historically accurate. The green movement only got any where from the 60s onwards, and only became accepted in the 90s.

Biology, on the other hand, predates the turn of the century: and I mean the last century. There is no direct link between Biology, which allowed us to reap more benefits from industrialising farming (large scale, fertilisers etc.,) and Environmentalism.

Medicine allows Sushi! Anyone who isn't in love with Sushi, well...

Second, with the +2 you get, you better get a CE which is already a bad strategy. Windmills in environmentalism should have +1 food on windmills. It's still realistic, in a kinda utopian environmentalist government there should be more food created with the better balance of the food production on hills.

A CE is a bad strategy in the late game? SEs, it is commonly accepted, have lost their power by this point, but Liberal civics have made a CE even more powerful. Adding food to windmills would make them much much more powerful than they are in real life, where the output they give is very limited, and only in certain areas. IMHO, their main advantage is they are beautiful. Which, incidentally, they are in-game.

Anyway, the +2 isn't on towns is it?

Also, I am sceptical that more food would be produced. Organic is far less efficient than modern farming, using more land and giving less dividends. This pushes up prices, hurting the poor the most, who spend a much larger proportion of their income on foodstuffs. Higher prices mean they buy less vegetables and fruit, greatly increasing cancer rates.

So organic food production produces less food, more expensively, harms the poor. Presumably, to differentiate it from the evil Capitalist model, it would also use lots of small level farmers. However, the agricultural industry benefits greatly from Economies of Scale, which is what causes the success of the US agricultural industry, which alone produces enough food to feed the entire world (represented in-game by Cereal Mills). The Enviro trait already effectively gets a food bonus, in the twin forms of health and making a food-giving improvement (windmills) look more attractive.

Third, additional +1 on naturally (without irrigation) river tiles (except oasis). It might seem much, but the 25% more on corporations is takes WAY more money than a puny +1 commerce. However if it is overpowered, maybe we could remove this.

Fourth, desert reduction. This should be the same principle as desertification with global warming. But you'd need a forest preserve near a desert.

Hate to ask, but is there actually any real-world basis for either of these?

 

[Deep Thought]

Hey, take and look at my thread "CIV-V Suggestions", and go to "Ecology".

 

[Antilogic]

It's already been moved back enough, and far far further back than is historically accurate. The green movement only got any where from the 60s onwards, and only became accepted in the 90s.

Biology, on the other hand, predates the turn of the century: and I mean the last century. There is no direct link between Biology, which allowed us to reap more benefits from industrialising farming (large scale, fertilisers etc.,) and Environmentalism.

Although you posted this months ago, I highly agree with this part. Environmentalism used to be way further down the tech tree, and I've considered moving it back to its original location.

 

[GuitarHero]

Although you posted this months ago, I highly agree with this part. Environmentalism used to be way further down the tech tree, and I've considered moving it back to its original location.

Speaking of months ago, I'm finally back! It's a long story. But it's GOOD to be back!

 

[mintyfreshdeath]

I've had games on noble where I have founded sushi and mining and spread them to most of my cities and then founded other corporations like civ jewelers and alumco to be spread into foreign cities. Alot of the time, in those games, I will switch to environmentalism and try to build the UN so I can pass the resolution that forces all civs to switch to enviro.
The spread of sushi and mining to all of my cities hurts at first under the enviro but once I sink my claws into every other civ through the spread of jewelers and alumco (and running heaps of merchants in my large sushi cities), my income will start to improve by leaps and bounds whilst crippling everyone else.
Environmentalism also helps in this case since the extra health helps to offset the increased unhealth in my rapidly ballooning population. Lots of Forest Preserves can help too, if you don't mind losing a few hammers in exchange for the gold bonus for this improvement under enviro.

 

[MrCynical]

First, environmentalism should be researched with biology, not medicine. Medicine is kinda long to get, and even builders are more likely to go assemblly line than medicine. But biology has kinda good bonuses, so people will be way more likely to take it.

It's already early enough (and far earlier than makes sense from a realism point of view). When it was stuck at Ecology (the last tech to be researched in a standard space race) it was a fair point, but not any more. Medicine and Biology are only one tech apart anyway. As for a builder going for assemblly line first, one word; Sushi.

Second, with the +2 you get, you better get a CE which is already a bad strategy. Windmills in environmentalism should have +1 food on windmills. It's still realistic, in a kinda utopian environmentalist government there should be more food created with the better balance of the food production on hills.

Eh? Enviromentalism is a late game civic, and a CE is at its best at this stage. The presence of high commerce tiles isn't really a call to run a CE by this stage anyway, since you don't need to run a high culture slider in an SE at this point.

Food is seriously valuable, and what you're suggesting would essentially allow you to build farms which also give commerce and production on any hill regardless of water source. With that extra food any hill tile (even ice or desert) would be self sustaining - doesn't entirely make sense.

From a realism point of view it has to be said that Enviromentalism doesn't translate to more food - if anything vice versa. Whatever the health benefits of organic food (and it's arguable) it's highly inefficient in terms of raw food output. Enviromentlism also clashes at points like GM crops, which could conceivably boost food output. I won't even go into the impact of Biofuels on food production.

Third, additional +1 on naturally (without irrigation) river tiles (except oasis). It might seem much, but the 25% more on corporations is takes WAY more money than a puny +1 commerce. However if it is overpowered, maybe we could remove this.

This one is more reasonable, though it would have a rather drastic synergy with Financial. Admittedly most financial riverside is probably cottaged anyway by this stage.

As to corporation costs, generally the approach for enviromentalism is to force it with the UN, opening new foreign markets for your corporations to offset (or exceed) the additional maintenance costs. Then the health and windmill bonus is pure profit.

Fourth, desert reduction. This should be the same principle as desertification with global warming. But you'd need a forest preserve near a desert.

Again, no realism argument, and the gameplay value is dubious. Forest preserves aren't even that effective spreading forests in the current setup, which is more of an issue.