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GK xpac issues.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by LostInTime, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

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    So I've played tons of games of GK lately. I love the new religion addition to civ5, but I still feel it's somewhat lacking regarding firaxis programming.

    -Religion.

    Stonehenge or die.

    This is a mayor issue with GK, going for religion on higher levels means you either get Stonehenge or you fail. There needs to be some AI balancing at higher levels regarding religion. AI's fail hard at getting the proper bonuses, and will get them too soon, so even if you skip religion, you will get a bad one from AI spreading it to you.

    It's lose/lose. Firaxis need to fix this in the next patch. Also consider letting religious buildings (pagodas/monasteries/mosques/cathedrals) work for everyone. Why only one religion should get them is beyond me. It would work much better for gameplay if you could choose between these in all religions than excluding them.

    -Combat

    AI needs to return units home to heal. Why do they keep them in one square to die all the time? It's silly and ********.


    -Research
    AI's get too many bonuses. WAY too often 1 AI steals all the wonders and keep them. There is no choice regarding research and wonders like there were in CiV4, when you could beeline to a wonder and be sure to get it if you had your priorities right. In Civ5 AI will beat you to all techs, and if they are biased the right way, they will take all wonders. This is bad. Religious AI's should go for Theology wonders etc. and lose Hanging gardens and the wonders in that path to civs going that path. I still wait for the Better AI patch for Civ 5, to fix a lot of these issues.

    -Culture

    This part of the game is fine. No complaints here.

    -Diplomacy

    Way too much crappy stuff here.

    -Loads of lose/lose and irrelevant options.

    The protect CS option is nice, but letting it go irrelevent after 10 influence is not.
    This needs a fix, so it's a good thing to keep protecting the CS after 10 influence as well.

    All the diplomacy options when you "insult" the AI. (settling near them, buying lands etc.)

    What is the point giving two options when they do nothing at all? If you say you won't settle near them anymore, give a diplo bonus for it... it's not that hard. Irrelevant options are stupid. FIX!

    Coups. There needs to be more depth regarding CS coups. If you station a high level spy there, it should be almost impossible to coup unless you got a similar high level spy staying there a long time. The current mechanic is silly and needs tweaking.

    I think thats it, feel free to add other mechanics you think needs tweaking and add reasons why on your replies.
     
  2. Gamewizard

    Gamewizard Emperor

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    I play Immortal, rarely build Stonehenge, and am still able to found a religion. I likely won't be the first but I will get one. If you play a Civ like Ethiopia, Maya, Celts then you should be able to be one of the first to a religion. If you want to play religious then I suggest going fairly wide and choosing the Piety path. You will rack up the faith points quick.

    Runaway AIs are necassary IMO on the higher levels in order to provide a challenge. Is it frustrating to lose a wonder by a couple turns? Sure, but that is why you are playing one of the harder levels, right?

    I don't understand your CS protection complaint. The resting point stays at 10 instead of 0, so therefor you are getting 10 free influence when you try to ally. Combine it with papal primacy and aesthetics and the CS will always be at least friendly.

    When an AI asks you not to settle near them it is really asking if you are going to be aggressive or not and whether they should prepare for war. If the AI didn't ask you to not settle near it then you could conceivably settle outposts right up against its borders without conflict, which would make it too easy to feign friendship and back-stab them. You don't get a positive modifier for agreeing not to settle near them, but you also don't get a negative one if you keep your promise.

    I don't have too much experience with spies in a city-state and still losing to an AI coup, so I can't comment too much. I would agree though that if you are using a Secret Agent spy in a CS, the AI should need a Secret Agent spy in order to coup it away from you. Maybe that is what happened in your situation.
     
  3. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

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    Well, thats kinda the point.. why do you have to play a religious civ to get a religion? It should be a choice depending on map, not "I picked *1* CIV I get religion.

    Runaway AI's is always bad. That means the other AI's screwed up and didn't target them. Look at CiV4 AI's to understand this.

    Yeah, it's good. My point is you get 10 influence then do quest, then revoke protection and it means nothing anymore. Not removing protection is always bad, thats my point.

    You get a negative one for settling near them, and they will declare because of it on Deity. The point is it doesn't matter if you say you don't care or not.

    This is broken for both AI and player. It's kinda ridicilous. Just try getting diplo victory at deity and you will understand.
     
  4. Rooftrellen

    Rooftrellen King

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    Why are the buildings different from any other belief? Why only one religion should get holy warriors is beyond me. Why should only one religion get a pope when there is actually more than one IRL and there have been moments when the Catholic church had more than one fighting to be the true pope? You could claim it's silly to limit ANY belief to one religion.

    The reason is gameplay. It's much more fun and interesting when you have to make meaningful choices.

    The AI does have problems, but this isn't one of them. I actually think the AI pulls back it's army too soon. I've seen them run away from cities nearly surrounded by units and one attack from taking it, and them running their whole army back home because of a little damage.

    You can still easily beeline and get almost any wonder. If you can't get a wonder after the first era or two if you are beelining. You may have to sacrifice in other areas to get there quickly, but that's the idea of beelining anyway.

    I can't think of many lose/lose situations in diplomacy. There are some irrelevant options, like when an AI insults you or declares war, but you'd have to click though it anyway, so not a problem to have an option of what to say.

    I agree. Revoking protection resulting in the instant loss of 20 influence, just like if you revoke it in response to an attack or threat, would fix it right up. No more protecting to 10 and using that as a jumping board for higher.

    If I say I won't settle near them or the like, they won't get upset about it, unless you do it, but then you tick them off more than if you're honest. Spying is similar, but they'll hold it against you even if you say you'll stop (but I've not noticed it making them nearly as mad if I say I'll stop and I never get caught again). Those options are very important to diplomacy.

    It does seem that coups are less likely to succeed when you have a spy in the CS, but, just like stealing techs, there is a good chance of success even with an enemy spy involved.
     
  5. HarvesterofSorr

    HarvesterofSorr Chieftain

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    My main complaint about Diplomacy is that the AI has options you don't like asking not to settle near you, don't convert my cities please, etc.
    Also I miss being able to trade techs and maps.
     
  6. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

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    That's my point. Some choices are just better than others, and AI seems to pick the bad ones a lot.

    You need to up your difficulty. Something is seriously wrong with the AI when they need that *Much* to grab one of your cities, and fail horribly when you prepare right.

    Great Library, Stonehenge, Temple of Artemis. All of these should be viable with beelining. Yet they are not.

    It's always silly... play deity and get the "settling near their borders". It's always bad no gain. You should have an option to play nice with your neighbors, yet there is none to make it viable early on.

    They get a -diplo from the start, thats the point. You can say go *%# themselves, and it makes no difference. They will still declare on you at Deity.

    It's all about money... I play this at deity, and that is where you see the broken mechanichs. Any difficulty would want more depth here really.
     
  7. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Actually, Maya and Ethiopia are not particularly good for getting a religion - they're great for an early pantheon, and you can choose one that produces faith, but Ethiopia rarely wants to expand and +2 faith per monument is not a big deal with a small empire, while +1 per shrine is even less of one. Maya in particular will be able to do a lot more with their faith later in the game once they've both got a religion and expanded heavily, but they won't get you (or the AI) a particularly early religion.

    Either of the Theology Wonders puts out as much (Hagia Sophia) or more (Djenne) faith than Stonehenge, and you can always go Piety. The Piety tree does need to be looked at to be more effective, but I think the rest is an issue with your playstyle - of course if you want early religion you need to follow the appropriate tech path, but there are several ways of obtaining a religion. Only one civ can get Stonehenge, and the AI doesn't appear to have any faith advantages over the human. I can usually get a religion on Immortal. Not typically early, but as you say the AI rarely takes the best religious beliefs (Tithe is pretty much always available late, so are Messenger of the Gods, Religious Texts and Interfaith Dialogue, while Fertility Rites isn't usually favoured), so there's not much reason to go for religion particularly early unless you have a specific need for a belief the AI prioritises.

    Not if you actually do want to protect the CS.

    Mostly it's to give you warning of when another civ's attacking/bullying your CS, so it's useful to protect city-states you want to invest in heavily. This is actually perfect in principle since it's what protection should be for - also, if you say "You'll pay for this" after a bully/attack, you seem less likely to suffer the warmonger penalty if you then declare war. You say you'd like it to do more - but to do what, exactly? What can it do mechanically that's both useful and in keeping with what protection represents?

    Also, bear in mind that for a civ going down the Patronage path, it's not just 10 influence - it's the difference between friendship without decay (Patronage policy 20 resting influence + 10 from protection) and simply being neutral on 20 without decay, the latter not especially useful in itself.


    It does give a bonus, although only sometimes and not immediately. Once you get the "you can consider your promise to have been fulfilled" notification, you will sometimes get a positive "You promised not to settle near them, and kept your promise" or equivalent modifier. I'm not sure what affects whether or not this will show, since I've seen it rarely. Any fix should make it more likely to apply, but it's definitely coded into the rules.

    Also, you'll notice that most of the time if you answer "I'm sorry, it won't happen again" you won't get the negative normally associated with the action they're complaining about, and you'll obviously never get the "They asked you to stop doing X, and you ignored them!" penalty.

    To a large extent it is. But the key way to limit coups is to have a lot more influence than your rivals, whatever the level of spy you have there.

    Not really - stationing a high level spy does make coups more difficult, but you shouldn't be able to just 'fire and forget' with them. If you don't make active efforts to cultivate your relationship with a CS (i.e. maximise influence), why should you be rewarded? The AI always pays gold to CSes before launching coups, to maximise its chances of success - and it seems quite reasonable that a player (human or AI) who invests that heavily in a CS can expect to be rewarded for it. I hardly ever suffer successful coups against my CSes on Immortal.
     
  8. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    You're entirely wrong about this. I've played many games on Immortal and Deity in which I've founded a religion without Stonehenge. Here are a few other ways to do it:

    1. Get lucky. Find a Faith ruin or a Faith-producing natural wonder.
    2. Befriend a religious city-state through quests and/or Gold.
    3. Play as civilization that has a religious bonus.
    4. Invest in the Piety tree and then quickly expand to build Shrines and Temples.
    5. Finish the Liberty tree and use the finisher to produce a free Great Prophet.

    Sometimes, Stonehenge is the best strategy for founding a religion. Most of the time, it isn't.

    I don't understand why everyone should have access to the religion buildings. For sure, we don't need any more Happiness in G&K.

    Yes, the AI sucks at combat.

    If you can't keep up with the AI, then you should play on a lower difficulty level or improve your strategy. I've build nearly every wonder numerous times on Immortal and Deity. Many other players have, too.

    The AI gets these bonuses because, as you alluded to in the "Combat" section of your post, the AI sucks. Firaxis has always relied on passive bonuses to make the AI more challenging in Civ games. Yes, the AI in Civ IV had these same types of bonuses. Unfortunately, getting the AI to play intelligently is very difficult. Don't expect these bonuses to go away any time soon.

    With Aesthetics, the resting state of a city-state under your protection is 30. This is, not accidentally, the amount of influence that you need to be friends with a city-state. The +10 resting state bonus isn't there to keep your influence at 10; it's there to keep it at 30.

    This strategy comes with obvious risks, but the rewards can be fantastic.

    These options aren't irrelevant. If you promise to stop settling near an AI and then keep that promise, you'll get a diplomacy bonus with that AI after a number of turns.

    That's pretty much already how it works. The rank of the spy and the number of turns that he's been in a city-state are precisely what determines that outcome of a coup attempt. Yes, there's a random factor involved. There's a random factor involved in everything else in the game, too. Randomness keeps things interesting.
     
  9. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

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    This should be a bonus, not something you can rely on.

    This can work, but it's kinda costly and not 100%. You need some faith from another source to make sure. (pantheon, shrines etc.)

    This shouldn't matter at all. It should be easier for them, but you shouldn't have to rely on picking the right civ as I said earlier.

    These two I've never managed to get to work in time. You need luck with slow AI's to be able to get it this way.

    You are wrong, if you get Stonehenge and a shrine, you will get a religion. And that makes it the only 100% sure way to found a religion.

    It would make AI spreading religion to you better, since their religions wouldn't suck so bad anymore. And it would give you more interesting choices how to spend faith early on.

    Not talking about human players. Look at your games. Way too often you have one AI hogging all the wonders for himself, while the rest get none. It should be more spread and focused depending on what they research. So my point was they should research a bit slower so you can never go wrong when you beeline for key wonders, but you should lose all the others on other paths.

    I don't want them to go away. Dunno where you have that from :p
    But it's a matter of resources, Civ4 AI was improved thanks to the BetterAI mod, firaxis has been notoriously bad at doing good things with their own games, usually relying on the community to fix things for them.

    The point still stands, protecting them will give you negative modifiers with AI and doing a quest/investing a bit and revoking is the best way to do it. Pledging to protect should do more than it currently does.

    They will covet your lands. It's not just that modifier, they go below a certain treshold and get pissed on you for tons of other things. Getting that message is a sure way to know they will start planning war on you and there is very little you can do about it.

    From my experience that only works with rigging elections. The key factor is influence with the CS, not level of spy or length of turns stationed there. And I disagree with you about that random factor. For a diplo victory you don't want random factor, you want long term planning, and there is currently none you can do, so it ends up being a question about money, and that is wrong.
     
  10. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    It is a bonus, but it's something that can change your early game quite dramatically. If you find a ruin, then you're all but guaranteed at least a pantheon. You might decide to go for a religion when you previously hadn't planned to.

    Of course, you still need to build your Shrines and Temples. Two cities with Shrines and Temples plus one allied religious city-state gets you to 10 Faith per turn, which is just about what you need to found a religion on Deity.

    And you don't need to rely on choosing them. I've provided you with other strategies to found a religion. However, using a civilization with a religious bonus changes up your early game and requires a different strategy than using other civilizations.

    What can I say? Play smarter? I've managed to do both on Immortal and I've read numerous accounts of getting both to work on Deity.

    Except that Stonehenge isn't guaranteed. Nothing in Civ V is guaranteed, nor should it be. Stonehenge is one strategy for founding a religion. Often, it isn't the best one.

    That's nonsense for two reasons. First, getting a free religion from the AI is never bad. It's always free and it's always positive. If you don't found your own religion, then you instead focused Gold, Science, Culture, and Production on wonders, military, or other priorities. Getting a less than optimal religion from the AI is the price that you pay for not founding your own, but it's still always a positive, free religion.

    Second, you could make the same argument for any religious belief. I happen to think that a religion without, say, Ceremonial Burial or Tithe is sub-optimal. Thus, every religion should have access to these two beliefs. Right?

    Of course not!

    I disagree entirely. First, the AI is meant to emulate human players. And I don't play multiplayer, so of course I was talking about the AI. Second, nothing should ever be guaranteed in Civ. The game relies heavily on uncertainty and risk and that's precisely how it should be. If you want guaranteed wonders, then play on Emperor. If anything, Immortal and Deity are too easy right now. I'm not suggesting that the AI needs even more tech bonuses, but it certainly does need help prioritizing in the mid-game and with combat.

    Anyway, wonder spam is a viable tactic for the human player on lower difficulty levels. The AI is just emulating that behavior. If you don't like it, well, take his cities. Now, the wonders are yours.

    The AI in Civ IV is still pretty bad and it's had many more years to improve than the has the AI in Civ V. Also, combat in Civ IV was much easier than combat in Civ V and that makes a big difference in AI difficulty.

    I disagree. Pledging to protect every city-state and taking Aesthetics is a great way to get lots of bonuses. If you don't want negative AI modifiers, then you can choose the other option and temporarily lose city-state influence. You'll get it back over time.

    What more do you want from pledging to protect a city-state? Slower influence loss? Better bonuses? Better chance to resist a coup? Something like that?

    Again, I'm not sure what to say other than "play better". I almost never go to war in my games unless I had an aggressive neighbor (e.g. Greece, America) and even then I can often avoid war by promising not to settle near them again, otherwise not pissing them off, and then keeping my promise. Spreading your religion helps in the early game. Sharing intrigue helps later. And, you could always join them in war against a third party.

    I'm pretty sure that the level of your spy determines the outcome of a coup attempt. Like, 99.9% sure.

    Anyway, I have no problem with Diplomacy being about Gold. It requires ~15 fewer techs than a Science victory and only 2-3 Social Policy trees to pull off. Instead of investing heavily in Science and Culture, you invest heavily in Gold (while obviously still not ignoring the other two!). What's wrong with that?

    I do agree that the coup spam can get a bit ridiculous in the late game, but that doesn't mean that coups are bad in general.
     
  11. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Money is one way to work it, but usually a less reliable one than long-term planning, particularly at higher difficulty levels where the AI will generally have more gold. Yes, it's an option, but diplo victory through conquest was an option (and typically the easiest one to achieve) in older Civ games - that feels "wrong" too, as was an alternative approach of just turtling and building a massive population advantage without meaningfully interacting with other civs at all. In the real world, a lot of diplomacy does revolve around money in any event, and managing gold well enough to be able to pull off diplo victory that way is deserving of a reward - it's not as though gold is a resource that magically becomes available in vast quantities without effort on the player's part (especially if you avoid cheap tricks like lux-for-gold trades, and even those rarely work in the late game). Gold-hoarding also doesn't help if you're at war with the civs that have the most CS allies, so ideally you will want to plan around making sure that they don't have allies you need to buy out in the first place - which indeed means long-term planning. Diplo is probably my most common victory condition, and I never shower gold on CSes (and usually don't produce enough to do so) - perhaps to secure one vital last vote or pull it away from a rival, but not to win the game.

    And that long-term planning means long-term - as in I'll liberate Elizabeth (conquered by the Huns) before turn 100 to secure her vote in the UN (a vital decision in that game - once I'd built the UN, Dido promptly invaded Jakarta to cost me that CS's vote), or cultivate my early-game friendships throughout the game for that end. In other games I've had in excess of 500 influence with several CS simultaneously - even Deity AIs rarely hoard enough gold to take more than one of those away or render it susceptible to coups, and I didn't get to that point by lavishing 6,000 gold on each CS at the last minute. And quite often I just take a neutral middle-man role while waiting for every other civ to declare war on each other (or, failing that, inciting them to do so), since now that voting is based wholly on which civ the AI likes best rather than their own interests (will a vote in your favour lose them the game? Had one game with three surviving civs, and Genghis my competitor for diplo victory - he cast the deciding vote in my favour because he was at war with Nebuchadnezzar), if you're the only one at peace with all the other civs they'll all vote for you.

    While this is generally true (and the AI usually will take Mosques, Pagodas or Cathedrals, so that even as a follower you get a major benefit from access to these), there is the downside that if a rival religion spreads to your cities you will lose the benefit of your own pantheon, which can be disruptive when you've planned around the specific pantheon you've selected but not around the AI's - you don't particularly want a religion whose pantheon is Desert Folklore when you've been farming culture from jungles, for example.

    I now do this routinely, and it can be very important to maintaining long-term friendships at higher difficulties as well as forestalling aggression from other AIs. I've yet to face early aggression from a Deity AI on a non-duel map - and that includes a game where my three closest neighbours were Askia, Montezuma and Suleiman (I did eventually get attacked by Suleiman, but I had settled a choice location on an island near his borders).

    Check the tooltip for a spy operating in a CS, which describes that this is exactly what happens, and you'll be 100% sure. Influence is still the more important factor, and this makes a lot of sense - after all, if your civ hasn't been cultivating good relations with the CS, where is your spy going to find the people to incite to launch a coup in your favour? To the OP, bear in mind that special agents are more powerful offensively than defensively - you can have a special agent stationed in your cities, and you'll still lose techs to special agents stealing them. Why shouldn't the same be true of city-states? The enemy can launch coups in them, but will need to send higher-level spies to do so.
     
  12. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    It seems odd to me you say you like the bonuses the AI gets, but then complain about things that come because of said bonuses.

    For example, on Deity the AI gets Tech and construction bonuses. This leads to them being more likely to found a religion before you. You then complain there is no 100% strategy for founding a religion. If there was a 100% way of doing anything in the game, whats the point of higher difficulties? Its supposed to MAKE IT HARDER TO DO. Founding a religion is perfectly possible on the hard difficulties, but don't make it seem like you are entitled to a religion when you are playing the hardest level and the AI get significant bonuses.

    If you can't handle it, move down a difficulty. I don't play on Deity for this reason, I also do not complain about the bonuses they get.
     
  13. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    Who agrees they should add a Cold War jet fighter, like a mig, or sabre? Either that or Vietnam War aircraft of some sort. Perhaps a Phantom F-4E. Who's with me?

    It seems to me, that propeller fighters last a bit too long. Fighters and bombers do not last long against SAMS. We should also have a B52. Units that belong more in the Information Era. These units could be the equivalent of the triplane in the Modern Era. From there they up to Jet Fighter and Stealth bomber. Also, get rid of GDRs. They are look so out of place for this game. You might as well just add an AT-AT. :lol:
     
  14. BobDole

    BobDole American Leader in Civ VI

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    No, I think it's fair to complain, because the AI should play better and require fewer bonuses to be propped up. Now, I know that the game will never get to a point where a Deity AI can play so well that it doesn't need any help at all, but it's really frustrating that Immortal and Deity level AIs are propped up by having insane bonuses. It makes the early game lame because the AI has such a tech advantage that your chances at the first/early religion, or an early wonder, are very low. I don't even bother with religion that much if I'm not a religion-focused civ since the AI starts with Pottery and will probably enhance their religion before I even found mine. And Wonders are usually a waste, since the only chance of getting one is to drop every single thing you're doing in order to maybe get it. (and when I say drop every single thing you do it, I mean it since you basically have to on getting that Wonder on Turn One).
    What's even worse is that despite all the lameness early game, late game still ends up pretty easy if you know what you're doing since the AI sucks at managing their empire, so you can eventually outtech them anyway. If the game ever gets a patch (it really needs one) the difficulty really needs adjusting so that it's more fun to play on higher difficulties, especially since any difficulties below Immortal are a bit of a joke for more experienced players.
     
  15. smallfish

    smallfish Immortal

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    I won't mind a space bomber or Gauss MG unit

    Lets also call this game Total War: Hearts of Iron IV
     

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