GL Calvary Beeline Game Advice/Critique please

[Gotrilliten]

I'm trying to learn how to play Civ 3 again, been doing a lot of reading through War Academy and watching some Suede videos. Mostly I've been playing through the expansion phase, then get a little bit in the Industrial phase and feel like I've fallen behind, particularly my diplomatic skills need some work I think. In that I came a cross a really interesting strategy of Beelining directly to The Great Library, playing very nicely with all the other civs, turning your Science to 0% Entertainment to 20-30%, and building up my economy during expansion while the tech rolls in until Education then Beeline Military Tradition for Calvary. I feel like this map is probably ideal for this strategy, as both continents are connected by coastal tiles, so I got pretty lucky there.

Doing Continents 60% water, Sedentary Barbarians, Less Aggresive Leaders, on Reagent difficulty.


I'm going to upload two Save Files. One right after my expansion phase, I think I actually did a pretty good job for once, but would like some critique. This is probably the most workers I have ever built and the most tiles improved by this point in the game.

(Oh god, I already see a problem, i've built a couple of Longbowman thinking they were defensive units like later Civ games, but in Civ 3 Archers are offensive units, duuuuhhhhh)

The second file is where I am at currently. I've made friends with pretty much everyone, but I am in the unfortunate position of not having any Saltpeter. Portugal has some in an adjacent city, so obviously I'd like to start my conquest by taking that city, upgrading all my Knights to Calvary and Trebs to Cannons and continue from there. What I don't know how to do though is start this war without everyone turning on me (or at least I'm too scared to proceed because of that possibility). Ideally I suppose I would want to sign some Military Alliances against Portugal but I couldn't get anyone to bite. I also thought about trading for Saltpeter (they want almost 700 gold), upgrading all my troops THEN turning around and backstabbing the Portuguese, but unsure if it'd be worth the consequences. Should I just make enough troops to account for all civs attacking me? As even if they declare war it might not be effective. Maybe a better question would be, how many Knights/Trebs should I build before going after Portugal? I have an idea of how many troops to create for an Early Rush (roughly 10-15?), but not very confident with later. Maybe something like 30?

Alternatively, while The Great Library might've been a great way to start I might not necessarily need to follow through with the Calvary Rush, and this might be a better candidate for waiting until I have Railroads? What do you think?


I'm also not sure if I'm overdoing it with the buildings, I've built cathedrals/libraries in most cities and am working on adding some Universities in between producing units, but perhaps at the point I am in the second savefile i should halt all production besides spamming Knights/Trebs? Maybe even go back to my Expansion save, and ensure i build a barracks in every city and start spamming Knights earlier?



Sorry these aren't the most original questions and have assuredly been answered in some form elsewhere, but I think if I could get advice on my specific game it might help me understand more about the game in general, so I appreciate any responses, even if you just wanna link me to an article or replychain with advice on similar situations.

(edit: i found the ScrewYourself post again, and realized I missed one of the keys to the strat, I should probably pillage that iron tile and produce Horseman and upgrade them to Calvary from there for less shields, especially since I got Leonardo's Workshop)

 

[Gotrilliten]

Seems like I was a little over worried, I went ahead and attacked Portugal, took Coimbra, got saltpeter, didn't even take notice of the fact I was playing Russia and had Cossacks, which are amazing with the extra attack. I got a Golden Age after like my second battle with them. I realized after like the second or third city taken I didn't really need my artillery. I also saw that I was very easily able to get Military Alliances after I declared and took Coimbra. I united the whole world against Portugal. They have one city left on another continent so I'll have to stay at war until someone else takes care of it (and takes the blame for the genocide, if that's even a diplo-hit in Civ 3) After learning that it's easier to ask for military alliances after you declare, my plan is to do the same thing to the Arabs and sweep my continent. I even did a test to make sure, and I was able to ally everyone against the Arabs while the war with Portugal was still ongoing - I guess it's a lot easier to do in Civ3 than later games. From there would it be better to wait till Railroads to go after the second continent? Maybe just enough to get Frigates and start sending my Cossacks over? I at least already have a good jumping off point.


My entertainment bar is sitting at 40% currently, and I suppose now would be a good time to actually start researching some techs myself. Or should I be able to bully and trade my way to success from here as well?

Am I right in waiting until I conquer the Arabs to build my Forbidden Palace, or should I go ahead and drop it in Lisbon? (or on the other continent)

I'm still interested in trying to play more optimally and might even consider starting over from post-expansion and disconnecting iron to spam Horseman until Military Tradition to save on shields.


So far it seems i'm on a pretty good track and this might be my first successful Civ 3 game since coming back to it. I'm still a wee bit trepidatious about everything I do because there are so many hidden mechanics.

 

[Southern_Man]

I haven't opened any of your saves, so these are just a few general thoughts on mechanics and some specific questions you have asked:

Generally it is not possible to make an alliance unless you are at war (you can make a mutual protection pact, but that is different and has downsides). Generally barracks in your core cities are really helpful for conquering.

Not sure why your happiness slider is at 40%, as you indicate that you have cathedrals in most of your towns. If you have any amount of luxuries and marketplaces you should be able to keep your populace happy with a lower slider, especially at regent. If you don't have enough luxuries you can trade for them (though don't trade with your next target so you don't break your trade pact). Marketplaces give extra happiness if you have at least 3 luxuries and marketplaces also give you additional gold while you are running 0 research with the great library so they are pretty essential buildings for this strategy.

Assuming you are playing conquests, the key factor with the Forbidden Palace is getting it as early as you can. You are probably too late for that, but you can rush it with a great leader if you get one. Try to get in a decently productive city if you can, but getting it soon is the priority. It works different in play the world or vanilla, but I have only played conquests for a long time.

Genocide penalties in civ3 (of something very much like them) come from razing cities and/or disbanding workers. Eliminating a civ will not get you a penalty. (also a city auto-razing because it is small and without culture will not get you a penalty). There isn't a necessary reason to stay at war with portugal, but probably no big downside to it as they do not appear to be a threat any more.

You should sweep your continent. Then there is a question of whether to build more universities and do self-research and/or whether and when you should invade the other continent. This is really a matter of preference. I usually prefer to win by diplomacy or space-race and in your situation I would start self-research, sweep the continent and then buckle down and win one of those ways. For that you want to build universities, make specialist farms once you get to where it is not productive to build libraries and universities, make sure you get to the Theory of Evolution and Hoover dam slingshot, trade tech for either other tech of GPT, as much as you can. You could consider gifting up any scientific civs on the other continent when you reach a new age. But it is also perfectly reasonable to go on and invade the other continent utilizing bombard. You will want to research enough to stay ahead, but yes, concentrate on building frigates, transports, eventually bombers. You have a winning position either way. Since you are utilizing this game to get back into Civ3, you could even play it twice from a certain point, once aiming for a diplomacy or spaceship victory and the other time aiming for a domination victory.

 

[justanick]

There are instances where building the great library is worth the trouble. Im my experience those instances are few. Since you are (essentially) new to the game you should leave those exceptions to the experts and not build the great library yourself.

Instead focus on what happens before turn 140 and thus 250 AD. What happens before turn 140 has the greatest impact. By which turn do you leave despotism? By which turn do you have 10+ cities of size 10+? How many tiles do you use by turn 140? The more the merrier and the earlier the better.

I'm trying to learn how to play Civ 3 again, been doing a lot of reading through War Academy and watching some Suede videos. Mostly I've been playing through the expansion phase, then get a little bit in the Industrial phase and feel like I've fallen behind, particularly my diplomatic skills need some work I think.

That is probably not what matters that much. What happens long before that does matter much.

Doing Continents 60% water, Sedentary Barbarians, Less Aggresive Leaders, on Regent difficulty.

The map size matters, too.

I also thought about trading for Saltpeter (they want almost 700 gold), upgrading all my troops THEN turning around and backstabbing the Portuguese, but unsure if it'd be worth the consequences.

700 gold seems rather cheap. Cavalry is worth a lot more than that. Playing russia does not make the advantage smaller.

I have an idea of how many troops to create for an Early Rush (roughly 10-15?), but not very confident with later. Maybe something like 30?

It does depend on the quality of your troops and what your enemy can muster. On regent 30 of those 4/4 cavalry may very well suffice.

Alternatively, while The Great Library might've been a great way to start I might not necessarily need to follow through with the Calvary Rush, and this might be a better candidate for waiting until I have Railroads? What do you think?

Waiting is often not the best option. Spending 400 shields on say horsemen instead of the great library is usually a much better choice. On a standard size map you want to get to 30 cities reasonably soon and this usually requires to apply some force.

I've built cathedrals/libraries in most cities

You should not build temples or cathedrals. At least not prior to railroads. And by the industrial age you may easily have 8 different luxuries which will give you 20 happy faces when a marketplace is present. So the simple answer is to never build a temple, a cathedral or a colloseum.

Maybe even go back to my Expansion save, and ensure i build a barracks in every city and start spamming Knights earlier?

Barracks are useful. In coastal towns different priorities may prevail as production is scarce and you may need a navy.

One way to look at barracks is that they increase hitpoints from 3 to 4. So to get back your 40 shields you need to spend 120 shields on proper land units after finishing the barracks. Some if not many cities can met that criteria reasonably soon, but probably not all of them.

 

[tenny]

Hello Gotrilliten!

Sorry these aren't the most original questions and have assuredly been answered in some form elsewhere, but I think if I could get advice on my specific game it might help me understand more about the game in general

No worry. We are glad to help and give advice!

I feel like this map is probably ideal for this strategy, as both continents are connected by coastal tiles, so I got pretty lucky there.

Map maybe, but your starting location absolutely not. See, the Great Library strategy is mostly suited for higher difficulty setting and requires you to build a 400 shield building rather fast in your capital. That means a strong capital (i.e. food bonus) is almost inevitable for that strategy to really work. You built it in 270 BC, which would be too late for higher difficulty games in most circumstances. On regent level, you should not build the Great Library. And your starting location is due to the lack of food not ideal for it. Maybe St. Petersburg would have been a better place to build the Great Library, since it had bonus food and mountains nearby.

One right after my expansion phase, I think I actually did a pretty good job for once, but would like some critique.

It depends on what you consider a pretty good job. Your first save is 270 AD, or turn 142. You have 14 towns, no cities and 13 workers. 3 Warriors, 4 Archers, 3 spearman, 1 Horseman, 1 curragh. (St. Petersburg and Novgorod had citizens as entertainers, which should be avoided, especially since these are core cities). You are behind Portugal in research, and could trade with Arabia for luxuries, which you don't do. Until 1000 BC, you had towns, and one (St. Petersburg) was supposedly a town given to you by barbarians, which was also close to a food bonus.

Your starting position is not strong, as there is lots of useless territory, mountains, plains, only 1 food bonus near St. Petersburg, very few bonus grasslands. Certainly on the more difficult ending of the spectrum. But there are things you could have done better. What I see is that you basically mine all grassland and irrigate all plains. Do not do what. By irrigating right up to St. Petersburg and using the tiles right, you could have had a 4-turn-factory in St. Petersburg after going into Republic, and a 6-turn-Settler-Factory in Moscow. This would have increased your growth dramatically. In the first save you are building settler in Novgorod, which can not grow faster than in 10 turns with only 2 excess food. That means Novgorod will lose 20 turns of growth when building the settler. You should rather build settlers in cities with more food + granary. Yakutsk had also a strong position, with 3 bonus shields in its radius. With proper irrigation, it could also have been a 6-turn-settler factory or 3-turn-worker factory.Vladiwostok needs more irrigation. It has only some grasslands, but lots of hills and is on the coast. It has 6 coast tiles, which give bonus commerce and 5 mountains. If you had irrigated the grasslands, the city would have grown faster and you could utilize the bonus commerce frome the coast, as well as the bonus shields from the hills. In the east of the large mountain landscape you could have settled more cities more densely, so you utilize all bonus commerce from the coasts soon enough, since you can not irrigate those tiles. So your only way for more growth in this area are more cities.

Rostov has a lot of improved desert tiles, but unimproved plains tiles. Since you are not an agricultural civ, improved desert tiles are still very bad, way worse than improved plains tiles. Also the grassland should have been irrigated for faster growth.

You also did not build any embassies. Embassies are very important for your relationships with other civ.

It is good that you had a generally tighter city placement and not a lot of space between the cities.

This is probably the most workers I have ever built and the most tiles improved by this point in the game.

What I don't know how to do though is start this war without everyone turning on me (or at least I'm too scared to proceed because of that possibility).

To prevent everyone from joining the war on the other side, the most important thing is to not enter enemy territory and then declare war (surprise attack). Instead, declare war in a clean matter before entering their territoy. Furthermore, you should have embassies with all the civ and trade (tech, resources) with them. They will like you more and hesitate to join a war as your enemy.

I also thought about trading for Saltpeter (they want almost 700 gold), upgrading all my troops THEN turning around and backstabbing the Portuguese, but unsure if it'd be worth the consequences.

Trading salpeter and then upgrading all the troops is a good idea. But maybe not backstabbing.

Should I just make enough troops to account for all civs attacking me?

No. You will build far too many troops, with all the downside of it, for a scenario which should only happen when you play badly, and should try to evade anyway in all cases.

Maybe a better question would be, how many Knights/Trebs should I build before going after Portugal? I have an idea of how many troops to create for an Early Rush (roughly 10-15?), but not very confident with later. Maybe something like 30?

30 is always a good idea. The bigger your stack, the smaller your losses will be and you will also conquer the territory faster.

Alternatively, while The Great Library might've been a great way to start I might not necessarily need to follow through with the Calvary Rush, and this might be a better candidate for waiting until I have Railroads? What do you think?

I do not think The Great Library was a great way to start, but you should certainly start wars more early, if you do not intend to play peaceful.

I'm also not sure if I'm overdoing it with the buildings, I've built cathedrals/libraries in most cities and am working on adding some Universities in between producing units, but perhaps at the point I am in the second savefile i should halt all production besides spamming Knights/Trebs? Maybe even go back to my Expansion save, and ensure i build a barracks in every city and start spamming Knights earlier?

Yes, you are overdoing it with the happiness buildings. You do not need temples or cathedrals. And while libraries are good, you have built libraries in 270 AD in towns which give you exactly 1 science beaker. So the 80 shields and the 1 maintenenca cost are completely wasted. You are only paying 10% on science at that time anyway, but even on 40% science funding, a lot of cities do not benefit more than 1 or 2 science from libraries.
It generally seems like you are always building libraries first. Do not do this. Towns farther away from your core might need a courthouse instead, others maybe a marketplace. If you want to extend your borders, settle new towns instead.

You have courthouses in your core cities. You do not need courthouses in your core cities. It is a waste of shields and money. In your Post Portugal save you are building colosseum in Moscow, which has 12 happy faces.

my plan is to do the same thing to the Arabs and sweep my continent.

War yes, always a good idea. But you do not need to get everyone involved on your side. They will just steal the cities and you can not make peace for 20 turns.

My entertainment bar is sitting at 40% currently, and I suppose now would be a good time to actually start researching some techs myself. Or should I be able to bully and trade my way to success from here as well?

Your entertainment bar is far too high at 40%. Maybe you had war weariness. But your luxury slider should be at a level which will keep your core cities content. Cities that are far away have too much corruption. Right now, you have 12 happy (!) citizens in moscow. You have 3 luxuries, with marketplace that is 4 happy faces. You play on regent, that means you do not worry about happiness in any town with a marketplace that is lower than 6 in population. Even in 1130 AD, you have a lot of cities with 6 or lower population. And then you also have temples in cathedrals in other cities. Right now, 10 % luxury slider would probably work out just fine.

In Post Portugal, you are even building a colusseum (120 shields, -2 gpt upkeep) in Moscow, which has 12 happy faces. While also having 40% at the luxury slider.
And you have 4 luxuries, which means 6 happy faces in cities with marketplaces. If you settle near lisbon, you will gain another luxury. So in cities with marketplaces that means 9 happy faces. On regent difficulty, that means every city up until size 11 is content. With your temples, you could theoretically just put luxury slider to 0%.

So yes, you should start researching and you probably should have started researching on your own much sooner.

Am I right in waiting until I conquer the Arabs to build my Forbidden Palace, or should I go ahead and drop it in Lisbon? (or on the other continent)

No. Your Forbidden Palace should be built ASAP (assuming you are playing Civ3 Complete), as it lowers corruption in your cities signifacntly.

I'm still interested in trying to play more optimally and might even consider starting over from post-expansion and disconnecting iron to spam Horseman until Military Tradition to save on shields.

I don't think it would be necessary on Regent to start over from post-expansion and then use something that is basically an exploit just to play more optimally. Instead, you could focus a little more on the expansion phase.

 

[Gotrilliten]

Thank you all very much. Gonna take some of this advice and start new game or too and keep focusing on my expansion phase. Along with actually balancing growing my cities population with building settlers, and spreading irrigation to cities that need it and not just using binary thinking of grass=mine plains=irrigation that's just a rule of thumb. I should probably specialize my cities a bit better and have select cities spamming settlers/workers. It seems it's actually pretty important to actually have cities that are 6+, particularly in Republic.

The entertainment bar was definitely too high and was only affecting a couple of far away freshly captured cities, so that was a waste. That's the highest i've put it since playing lol.

I also have totally been neglecting embassies. I guess because it isn't the trade window like later games I didn't think about it until right before I wanted to make a military alliance.

Thank you on the advice about buildings. I should not build building for culture pops, just more towns, got it. Should I just be building wealth in low pop low yield cities that are basically there just to take space? Or when I want to keep a city 6+pop and I don't want to build military units?


Also on the topic of Difficulty, would I be better off turning it up to Monarch or something, so I have a better idea of how faster I should be doing things and not just develop bad habits from easier difficulties?

 

[justanick]

Thank you all very much. Gonna take some of this advice and start new game or too and keep focusing on my expansion phase. Along with actually balancing growing my cities population with building settlers, and spreading irrigation to cities that need it and not just using binary thinking of grass=mine plains=irrigation that's just a rule of thumb. I should probably specialize my cities a bit better and have select cities spamming settlers/workers.

In my opinion it is less about specialization(which does matter), but simply about growth. Within the territory you can peacefully acquire, you should have a citizens working each tile as soon as reasonably possible. This is one of the reasons why you should leave despotism as soon as reasonably possible.

You seem to have read quite some articles, but some matter less than others. One article that seems to really matter for you is the case for food.

The Case For Food – Or, How to Become Economically Dominant - CivFanatics

This article is about is some of the things I suggest for internal improvement. Basically, how I think city spacing and the economic buildup of a civ (under ideal circumstances) should be approached. Basically, there are four things I think are pivotal in the maximum economic development of a...

civfanatics.com

It seems it's actually pretty important to actually have cities that are 6+, particularly in Republic.

Well, 7+ as only at size 7 to 12 you get 3 free unit support instead of 1 at sizes 1 to 6.

Thank you on the advice about buildings. I should not build building for culture pops, just more towns, got it.

Well, you do need libraries. But the thing about most of the useful buildings is, that they only become really useful if those cities have reached size 10+. Also you do want corruption to be reasonably low. So while your first priority is to utilize as many tiles as reasonbly possible, your second priority is to do that with as few cities as possible.

Should I just be building wealth in low pop low yield cities that are basically there just to take space? Or when I want to keep a city 6+pop and I don't want to build military units?

There are instances in which wealth makes sense, but if your overall strategy is right, then those instances are rare. Allow me to exaggerate: Wealth only become relevant in those instances that are not relevant.

If a town is just producing 1 shield (say because it is still at size 1), then wealth can make sense for a turn or two.

If however we are talking about proper cities, then producing military units is usually a better choice by quite some margin.

You can always disband unneeded units and get 25% of shields back. But this again less relevant for you.

Also on the topic of Difficulty, would I be better off turning it up to Monarch or something, so I have a better idea of how faster I should be doing things and not just develop bad habits from easier difficulties?

I advise you to choose Emperor. You might fail at first, but Emperor is a really good compromise. The step from Regent to Emperor is smaller then the step from Emperor to Demigod. So stay at Emperor for a while.

Choose the Iroquois, they are the easiest tribe.

 

[Gotrilliten]

It depends on what you consider a pretty good job. Your first save is 270 AD, or turn 142. You have 14 towns, no cities and 13 workers. 3 Warriors, 4 Archers, 3 spearman, 1 Horseman, 1 curragh. (St. Petersburg and Novgorod had citizens as entertainers, which should be avoided, especially since these are core cities). You are behind Portugal in research, and could trade with Arabia for luxuries, which you don't do. Until 1000 BC, you had towns, and one (St. Petersburg) was supposedly a town given to you by barbarians, which was also close to a food bonus.

You know as I'm looking over this again, it's particularly embarrassing that I thought I was doing well, because I wasn't even doing what I was setting out to do. I don't even have 1.5 workers per city, which was my goal (why I never even look at my military advisor to keep track of it idk), and I should probably have been shooting for 2. I think my biggest problem is that I need to slow down and actually keep track of what I'm doing. I keep playing in autopilot as if I already know what I'm doing. A bad habit I have with most strategy games.

In my opinion it is less about specialization(which does matter), but simply about growth. Within the territory you can peacefully acquire, you should have a citizens working each tile as soon as reasonably possible. This is one of the reasons why you should leave despotism as soon as reasonably possible.

You seem to have read quite some articles, but some matter less than others. One article that seems to really matter for you is the case for food.

The Case For Food – Or, How to Become Economically Dominant - CivFanatics

This article is about is some of the things I suggest for internal improvement. Basically, how I think city spacing and the economic buildup of a civ (under ideal circumstances) should be approached. Basically, there are four things I think are pivotal in the maximum economic development of a...

civfanatics.com

Well, 7+ as only at size 7 to 12 you get 3 free unit support instead of 1 at sizes 1 to 6.

Well, you do need libraries. But the thing about most of the useful buildings is, that they only become really useful if those cities have reached size 10+. Also you do want corruption to be reasonably low. So while your first priority is to utilize as many tiles as reasonbly possible, your second priority is to do that with as few cities as possible.

There are instances in which wealth makes sense, but if your overall strategy is right, then those instances are rare. Allow me to exaggerate: Wealth only become relevant in those instances that are not relevant.

If a town is just producing 1 shield (say because it is still at size 1), then wealth can make sense for a turn or two.

If however we are talking about proper cities, then producing military units is usually a better choice by quite some margin.

You can always disband unneeded units and get 25% of shields back. But this again less relevant for you.

I advise you to choose Emperor. You might fail at first, but Emperor is a really good compromise. The step from Regent to Emperor is smaller then the step from Emperor to Demigod. So stay at Emperor for a while.

Choose the Iroquois, they are the easiest tribe.

Thank you for that article, very informative. Early game I was really hamstringing my economy by constantly keeping my citys at 1-3 population while I pumped Settlers/workers inefficiently.


Yes, I think I understand how to use my libraries now. It's a percentage bonus so you need some base beakers to boost. Therefore if I actually allow my cities to grow and produce beakers, than the library is worthwhile.

Trying out Emperor now and going to keep trying a few games with the advise given. Work on my fundamentals. Emperor is definitely a change right off the bat. I see if you aren't lucky enough to start with a luxury resource you're gonna be using that Entertainment slider right from the start.

 

[Southern_Man]

You have gotten a lot of good advice from better players than I am. I am just going to add one resource, which is about what buildings to build. This video really helped me in moving from Regent>Monarch>Emperor. One of the keys was understanding the mechanics of the building bonuses and then being more selective in what infrastructure I was building:

You have already correctly discerned that one of the key changes in moving up levels is managing happiness.

 

[tenny]

Also on the topic of Difficulty, would I be better off turning it up to Monarch or something, so I have a better idea of how faster I should be doing things and not just develop bad habits from easier difficulties?

Trying out Emperor now and going to keep trying a few games with the advise given. Work on my fundamentals. Emperor is definitely a change right off the bat.

Feel free to play on any difficulty you like. However, you asked which difficulty is suited best to avoid developing bad habits. And I think you might run into developing bad habits actually when you just try to beat Emperor right now.

Unless you play Civ 3 PtW and not Civ 3 Complete, researching Philosophy as a first tech will grant you another technology for free. One very popular strategy is to research Alphabet -> Writing -> Code of Laws -> Philosophy -> Republic as free tech, as it will allow you to get into Republic very early. As you have mentioned above, a great idea for you would be to improve the way you set up factories for settler pumps in your expansion phase. If you don't have food bonuses nearby, that is only really possible if you leave despotism because the despotism penalty prevents normal irrigated grassland to produce excess food. On Emperor, getting the so called "Republic Slingshot" gets much harder, as the AI grows 25% faster, starts with a bonus worker, trades more tech as well as giving you a 25% penalty cost on research. On top of that, you only get 1 citizen born content, while the AI still has 2 citizens born content.

Take your save game for example. Portugal started west of you. Portugal starts with Pottery and Alphabet, so two technologies you would have had to research in order to get the Republic slingshot as Russia. Furthermore, Portugal started on a river and had lots of river tiles, which give bonus commerce. They also are Seafaring, which means the cities on the coast/access to the sea get extra commerce in the city center tile and thus their capital would have increased research even more. Portugal also had cows right next to the capital, so extra food. I think on Emperor even a player who knows extremely well what they were doing would not have had real troubles to get the Republic slingshot.

But getting the Republic slingshot and knowing how to get it and what it takes, as well as utilizing it is one of the key improvements that would help you with the game and the expansion phase. And you might miss it more often on Emperor and then play most if not all of the expansion phase in despotism.

On a sidenote, you should also build the granary sooner. I think you know that already, but I am just saying it again to make sure. In the save files, you build the granary in your capital at around 1750 BC and in St. Petersburg (which had bonus food and bonus grassland) only in 1125 BC. In most cases, it is better to build granaries before the first settler.

You know as I'm looking over this again, it's particularly embarrassing that I thought I was doing well, because I wasn't even doing what I was setting out to do. I don't even have 1.5 workers per city, which was my goal (why I never even look at my military advisor to keep track of it idk), and I should probably have been shooting for 2. I think my biggest problem is that I need to slow down and actually keep track of what I'm doing. I keep playing in autopilot as if I already know what I'm doing.

Oh, I don't think it is particularly embarassing. I actually think that you are a little too hard on yourself with that one. Just look at the cites. You have only 2 or 3 unworked tiles at the time of your first save, and these are only in cites on the far east. So from just the save files you actually had a quite fitting amount of workers. I guess you were producing workers, but the unit upkeep in Republic were just too high, so you stopped. And without proper irrigation, your cities could never really grow so fast that more workers would have been needed.

I should probably specialize my cities a bit better and have select cities spamming settlers/workers. It seems it's actually pretty important to actually have cities that are 6+, particularly in Republic.

Oh yes, absolutely. The higher unit support + improved city center tile makes the 7th citizen the most valuable. Getting to 7 pop only cost 120 food, so you can get there quite fast.

Should I just be building wealth in low pop low yield cities that are basically there just to take space? Or when I want to keep a city 6+pop and I don't want to build military units?

If you are talking about cities with bad lands, like tundra, building workers might be a good alternative as you can add them to other cities which have more productive tiles/less corruption, if there are still cities around that are not at full size.

Usually you want to be building military units. In the game you are playing right now as Russia, your tech pace was quite slow and you started wars fairly late. If you grow your cities faster, research and trade with partners, you will probably tech much faster. So you will not have so much idle time in your cities between improvements. And if you fight more, you will also need more military.

 

[Gotrilliten]

Feel free to play on any difficulty you like. However, you asked which difficulty is suited best to avoid developing bad habits. And I think you might run into developing bad habits actually when you just try to beat Emperor right now.

Unless you play Civ 3 PtW and not Civ 3 Complete, researching Philosophy as a first tech will grant you another technology for free. One very popular strategy is to research Alphabet -> Writing -> Code of Laws -> Philosophy -> Republic as free tech, as it will allow you to get into Republic very early. As you have mentioned above, a great idea for you would be to improve the way you set up factories for settler pumps in your expansion phase. If you don't have food bonuses nearby, that is only really possible if you leave despotism because the despotism penalty prevents normal irrigated grassland to produce excess food. On Emperor, getting the so called "Republic Slingshot" gets much harder, as the AI grows 25% faster, starts with a bonus worker, trades more tech as well as giving you a 25% penalty cost on research. On top of that, you only get 1 citizen born content, while the AI still has 2 citizens born content.

Take your save game for example. Portugal started west of you. Portugal starts with Pottery and Alphabet, so two technologies you would have had to research in order to get the Republic slingshot as Russia. Furthermore, Portugal started on a river and had lots of river tiles, which give bonus commerce. They also are Seafaring, which means the cities on the coast/access to the sea get extra commerce in the city center tile and thus their capital would have increased research even more. Portugal also had cows right next to the capital, so extra food. I think on Emperor even a player who knows extremely well what they were doing would not have had real troubles to get the Republic slingshot.

But getting the Republic slingshot and knowing how to get it and what it takes, as well as utilizing it is one of the key improvements that would help you with the game and the expansion phase. And you might miss it more often on Emperor and then play most if not all of the expansion phase in despotism.

On a sidenote, you should also build the granary sooner. I think you know that already, but I am just saying it again to make sure. In the save files, you build the granary in your capital at around 1750 BC and in St. Petersburg (which had bonus food and bonus grassland) only in 1125 BC. In most cases, it is better to build granaries before the first settler.

Oh wow! I don't know how I hadn't come across the Republic slingshot. I actually hadn't realized that getting Philosophy first gets you a free tech. I think I might have even gotten it before and not realized what did it lol.

Did start an Emperor Pangaea Standard size game and actually set up settler/worker factories a little more properly. Went granary->settler->settler and generally focus on food and spreading my irrigation a bit better went into 250 A.D with 19 cities, a couple with 12 pop and the the majority 7+ and on their way to getting bigger. Had a lot of food resources Capital started with Grass Cows next to a river. So, glad you confirmed granary first it seems like its the way to go. I sat at 3 pop in my capitol and could just spam Settlers at 5 pop and go back to 3 pop 2 turns till increase.

I think without slingshot I got Republic around 550BC. Not 100% on that, but i think only one other civ had it

Might try a few more on Emperor and if it feels too impossible to get Philosophy first I might bump it back down to Monarch. Though I feel like managing the happiness is something I need to get used to.


My eyes certainly bulged seeing how many more techs the first couple of AIs i ran into had than me, but it leveld out a bit once I started trading. Got banking and gunpowder at 450 AD and I've been staying one step behind the AI in tech, but I don't really feel out of the game (could be delusional lol). I have comparable military (Compared to them, we have an average military) and most of those are Mounted Archers waiting to be upgraded to Calvary. Though I'm not sure how well that strategy would work, if i were to continue this game. I tried to go for Leonardo's Workshop, but I wasn't even close, of course lol.

(Edit I did continue the game, ended up getting suprised declared by the AI at Polite while I was getting ready to Attack another AI, They ended up taking 3 of my undefended cities in the first turn. And i thought we were friends Lincoln...)

90%~ of my tiles are upgraded (besides a few i missed in my core citys to my own shame) with 18 workers (could use more before railroad). So i think I'm improving a bit, but i still got some work to do.

 

[justanick]

Feel free to play on any difficulty you like. However, you asked which difficulty is suited best to avoid developing bad habits. And I think you might run into developing bad habits actually when you just try to beat Emperor right now.

[...]On Emperor, getting the so called "Republic Slingshot" gets much harder, as the AI grows 25% faster, starts with a bonus worker, trades more tech as well as giving you a 25% penalty cost on research.

If you start at a river, it is still fairly easy. Only starting at Demigod chances become significantly slimmer. One could of course argue that relying on getting Repulic as bonustech of philosophy is a bad habit. This is more of a philosophical question.

I think without slingshot I got Republic around 550BC. Not 100% on that, but i think only one other civ had it

So that is turn 100. Unless you get it as bonus tech, turn 90 ought to be doable. Getting it as the bonus tech can antedate it by more than 20 more turns. That is quite powerful, but not reliable at higher difficulty settings.

All in all you paint the picture that you are starting to grasp the basics, which does give you a decent shot at winning at Emperor.

 

[Gotrilliten]

Well. this has been my entire day today, but I finally beat an Emperor game 1902. Went Iroquois Continents 70%. I had two reloads, but they were important lessons judging enemy power (Thought I'd have decisive victories against the Celts both times but after 2 turns in the war I realized I was getting into long drawn out fight I had a chance of losing).

Was worried because I started next to the Aztecs and they were ahead of me Scientificly, but I had Iron and they didn't, and as I'm building up Swordsman to see if I had a chance, they build the Great Library, so I take their Capitol and one other city, make peace to finish them up later (was a risky war i had just enough to defend it afterwards to make peace). Since I had the Great Library I was able to rush Calvary, hoping to sweep my continent but the Celts had built up pretty much an equivalent army (1st reload). Luckily I ended up have 3 Luxury Resources and every Strategic Resource within my borders after kicking Japan and the Aztecs off my continent. I built my Forbidden Palace super late again sometime after war with Aztecs.

After getting to Bomber/Tank era and trying to roll up to Celts with 50+Bombers 30 Tanks and get met with like 120+units (majority Infranty+calavry) marching right up through my frontline and eating my lunch (2nd reload). That's when I gave up domination and went Space Victory. Everyone was really mad at the Arabs, so I was able to scoot under the radar while I tried to keep up with Emperor AI's insane unit spam to not be a target. I stayed weak to average compared to Celts the whole game even after getting Modern Armor, but at least Both Byzantines and they wanted a Mutual Protection Pact, while everyone saber rattled with the Arabs. I stayed in War a good portion of the game with the Arabs along with everyone but never had any battles till the end when I took some of their cities. War Weariness never really an issue, which checks out with what I've heard

After boost from GL was able to stay ahead, I missed Newton's, but I got Theory of Evolution (I even remembered to go Big Picture and trade before getting second free tech), and stay ahead from that point on getting every major wonder I wanted most importanly United Nations so I could block Diplomatic VIctory.


I was beelining for Republic slingshot, but I was unsure of my progress, chickened out and took Philosophy->Code of Laws.

I got a really good start, and got lucky with my neighbor build Great Library while I was already thinking about attacking them, but I still wanted to celebrate my victory and this is the only place lolol

Left save files along with where I reloaded. Now i need to go pass out i got work what have i done lol.

 

[tenny]

Congratulations for your first Emperor Victory !

I tried to go for Leonardo's Workshop, but I wasn't even close, of course lol.

I don't think Leonardo's Workshop is that important. It is nice to only pay half the price for upgrading units, but you have to make an investment of 600 shields upfront.

If you are interested in some feedback for the save file in 1160 AD:

I saw that you had scientist specialists in a lot of your cities. I think it would have been better to have them working tiles. In some cities the research output was even higher after assigning them to coast tiles.

Arabia and the Celts also had luxuries that they were able to trade. You could have put your luxury slider to 0% if you traded for their luxuries.

I think you could also have waited with the universities and especially the banks. They are 200 shields / 160 shields and they increase your science or treasury output in a city by 50%, not that big of an advantage. Especially with the banks if you are focusing on researching. Some first ring cities also had courthouses, which I think weren't needed. So maybe investing their shields into military + earlier expansion would have been beneficial. Maybe you could have beaten the celts that way earlier.

You did not enter your Golden Age. Probably you did not have access to horses early enough. But it works really well to build an army of your civ's unique units and then use the golden age to boost your cities production + infrastructure. It might have helped to build your core infrastructure (marketplace + library + harbor) earlier. I think you built some of these buildings a little bit late.

But you were doing really well, leading (F11 screen) in shield production, commerce, overall production etc.

 

[justanick]

You did not enter your Golden Age. Probably you did not have access to horses early enough. But it works really well to build an army of your civ's unique units and then use the golden age to boost your cities production + infrastructure. It might have helped to build your core infrastructure (marketplace + library + harbor) earlier. I think you built some of these buildings a little bit late.

There is a bit of a tradeoff, of course. If you trigger the GA too early, few tiles get the bonus because your population is still too small.

Population first, an army of UUs second and buildings third tends to be a reasonable compromise.

Of couse you could also try to wait till you have libraries and marketplaces first, so those 50% apply to the GA as well. Then the limit of 4 turns per tech matters, so that waiting tends to be suboptimal.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Congratulations! An aspect of wonder building that you probably know, but I wanted to mention since you said that you missed Newton's.

Prebuilding: As you probably know, any shields that are put into building/relocating your Palace may be switched to building a Great Wonder without penalty. Thus, as you start researching the tech before Theory of Gravity, you could set one of your high science cities (ideally, the one that also has Copes) to start building the Palace. Giving yourself essentially a 8 or 10 turn head start. When you finish researching Theory of Graavity, switch that city from producing the Palace to producing Newton's.

Given the number of units you needed to build in that timeframe, I can understand if you needed to focus on the war. I can also see that your later production was good, as you wrote "from that point on getting every major wonder I wanted most importanly United Nations"

 

[Gotrilliten]

Congratulations for your first Emperor Victory !


I don't think Leonardo's Workshop is that important. It is nice to only pay half the price for upgrading units, but you have to make an investment of 600 shields upfront.

If you are interested in some feedback for the save file in 1160 AD:

I saw that you had scientist specialists in a lot of your cities. I think it would have been better to have them working tiles. In some cities the research output was even higher after assigning them to coast tiles.

Arabia and the Celts also had luxuries that they were able to trade. You could have put your luxury slider to 0% if you traded for their luxuries.

I think you could also have waited with the universities and especially the banks. They are 200 shields / 160 shields and they increase your science or treasury output in a city by 50%, not that big of an advantage. Especially with the banks if you are focusing on researching. Some first ring cities also had courthouses, which I think weren't needed. So maybe investing their shields into military + earlier expansion would have been beneficial. Maybe you could have beaten the celts that way earlier.

You did not enter your Golden Age. Probably you did not have access to horses early enough. But it works really well to build an army of your civ's unique units and then use the golden age to boost your cities production + infrastructure. It might have helped to build your core infrastructure (marketplace + library + harbor) earlier. I think you built some of these buildings a little bit late.

But you were doing really well, leading (F11 screen) in shield production, commerce, overall production etc.

Thank you!


Some good points here.
Leonardo's Workshop was definitely not worth it. I kinda forgot Calvary didn't upgrade to tanks, so that's a lot of wasted shields.
I need to micro a bit better and remember commerce = research if my tech slider is up, so Specialist would probably be better used if I had my slider down if then. I need to look more into how Great People farming works in this one. I've only seen one Science Specialist since playing.
Same with the Universities and Banks, I kinda just automatically build them in any city 6+ with even bad production.

And this post made me realize I don't know how Golden Ages really work in this game, so I read up on that some. UUs and Trait-Specific Wonders, so UU's probably most reliable way.

Congratulations! An aspect of wonder building that you probably know, but I wanted to mention since you said that you missed Newton's.

Prebuilding: As you probably know, any shields that are put into building/relocating your Palace may be switched to building a Great Wonder without penalty. Thus, as you start researching the tech before Theory of Gravity, you could set one of your high science cities (ideally, the one that also has Copes) to start building the Palace. Giving yourself essentially a 8 or 10 turn head start. When you finish researching Theory of Graavity, switch that city from producing the Palace to producing Newton's.

Given the number of units you needed to build in that timeframe, I can understand if you needed to focus on the war. I can also see that your later production was good, as you wrote "from that point on getting every major wonder I wanted most importanly United Nations"

This is helpful, I knew you could prebuild in this game, but it didn't occur to me to use the Palace as a jump off building since it cost so many shields. That gives me something to plan around.

 

[justanick]

I need to micro a bit better and remember commerce = research if my tech slider is up, so Specialist would probably be better used if I had my slider down if then.

If corruption is reasonably low and you get the commerce bonus from republic, then a citizen working a tile is almost always better than a specialist. 2 food+1 shield+2 commerce almost always beats 3 beakers.

Libraries give 50% on beakers, but not on those from specialists.

I need to look more into how Great People farming works in this one. I've only seen one Science Specialist since playing.

If you are the first to discover a tech, then there is a small chance you get a SGL. The chance is estimated to be 5% for a scientific tribe and 3% else.

Getting a military leader requires that an elite unit wins a battle while no leader exists. So even having a SGL in reserve prevents you from getting a great military leader.

The chance for a GML is 1/32 for killing an enemy at whlie defending and 1/16 for killing an enemy when attacking. Heroic Epic increases the chances to 1/24 and 1/12 respectively.

If you are insane enough to play a Sid or beyond you can get several great military leaders per turn because you have enough enemies to kill. Bamspeedy took this to the extreme:

Thread 'Beyond Sid'

Oct 15, 2003

PTW 1.27-Default rules, except for difficulty level

AI cost factor is 1 This means they can build temples for 6 shields, Pyramids for 40 shields, towns need 2 food to grow (growth every turn), 3 shields for a settler, etc.

Free Units at start of game for AI:
3 settlers
6 workers
18 defensive units
9 offensive units

36 free unit support/civ
12 free unit support/city

Max anarchy: 1 turn
AI to AI trade rate: 300

Percentage of optimal cities (for my corruption): 50%

Gameplan

Need to have the AI isolated from each other to slow down tech pace. Even...

• Bamspeedy
• Replies: 223
• Forum: Civ3 - Stories & Tales

UUs and Trait-Specific Wonders, so UU's probably most reliable way.

Indeed.

 

[Spoonwood]

One thing new players often struggle with lies in realizing how useful citizens working tiles can be. You did well enough to win your last emperor game by spaceship, but your empire had a large amount of unworkable tiles by the cities that your empire had.

Looking just on the rightside of your capital my eyes found over a dozen tiles which couldn't get used by any city! Note that each coast tile (the lighter blue type of tile) gives exactly as much commerce as a river tile with a road. A sea square (the darker blue type of tile) gives just as much commerce as a roaded tile.

In the above screenshot the two red circles indicate where cities could have gone to better use more coast and sea squares. The red dot next to Allegheny would have had more commercial power if it had gotten placed on one of the red dots, in some alternate historical universe.

Making good use of sea squares has another use, even in corrupt areas when playing for high score.

If you want a challenge, my challenge will be to score more than 4000 points on a Small, Standard, OR Large Warlord map AND win the game in 2050 by having the highest score of any player in the game with at least one AI still alive.

You can see below that I do not pose a challenge that I have not completed myself.

 

[templar_x]

You should not build temples or cathedrals. At least not prior to railroads. And by the industrial age you may easily have 8 different luxuries which will give you 20 happy faces when a marketplace is present. So the simple answer is to never build a temple, a cathedral or a colloseum.

nuff said!
t_x