Glamorization of the Wehrmacht

But that was only one faction of the army, you can't dress it up as an anti-fascist movement spread across the entire Wehrmacht. If it was, it might have been a little more successful...

sign.

And the political PoV is indeed important. With this show it was suggested that all of the Wehrmacht were also murderers!

I dont want to put you in that corner, but this argument was used by active and known nazis during the controverse a lot. Its polemic and bare of any logic. Stating that the Wehrmacht was involved in war crimes does not mean stating that every single wehrmacht soldier commited crimes.

regarding the 20th of july 1944:

only a few of the conspirators where actually driven by the thought of ending the atrocities they themselves had seen on the front and the holocaust.
most of them acted in the national interest of germany, regarding hitler as a bad strategist, and would have tried to achieve a tie in the war and make peace as fast as possible after the assasination.
even antisemites and war criminals were involved, like eduard wagner, who was responsible for the death of millions of soviet pows and joined the conspiracy out of fear from the soviets...
 
I've always found the German Army in WWII fascinating, probably started with war movies as a kid. I loved movies like the Dirty Dozen, The Guns of Navarone, Force 10 from Navarone, Patton and Where Eagles Dare. The Germans were bad guys, but competant & deadly.

I've played Panzer General in all its iterations since the first one came out. I've overrun Moscow, London and Washington more times than I can count and each time the cutscene of the iron cross flag (used instead of the swastika) flying over the enemy capital gives me a weird ambivalent feeling. When I used to play Axis v Allies I loved to find a way for Germany to win. I like books that have an alt history look at German victory in WWII like Fatherland.

The uniforms are cool the equipment is even better. But mostly you also get an atavistic thrill from the bad guys while at the same time knowing that they lost and were pounded into the dirt.

Right now I'm reading Warfare and The Third Reich which has a largish section on the guilt of the Wehrmacht, specifically the senior officers. The author's basic take is that the German Army allowed Hitler to rise to power in the hopes of a restored full size army, initiated a personal loyalty oath to Hitler (which the honor bound Prussian officer corps took seriously), was easily cowed by the sacking of Fritsh & Blomberg (drummed out by false accusations of homosexuality and true allegations of prostitution on the part of B's wife) and the appointment of Keitel and Jodl, at the least acquiesced in the atrocities in the east and for the most part acted with temerity, cowardice and indecision when attempting to remove Hitler.



And here is also the difference to Bush: He is making a third not legal group. Hitler would give him an order for that BS. But Bush did not make martial law nor he gave them a criminal trial or is using them as PoW. That's why he is wrong.

Bush references are the new Godwin. Its come to the point where people are referencing Bush to justify German atrocities in WWII.
 
As nearly all generals of the Wehrmacht were asked to support the coup at one time and no one went to Hitler you can see that there the resistance was much more spread. Some did not act as they feared for their families, some did not act because of the oath, which was for a Prussian officer something holy, much more full of means than today. Yes, the Wehrmacht should have acted and made a coup earlier. But was that really possible in 1933? No, Hitler was legally at the power and the crimes did not happen until later. And then it was started to make a coup. But then you should have a damn good justification for the people. That was possible in 1938 and since 1941/42. Inbetween Hitler had a support which was making impossible to harm him. Also again the Wehrmacht was tought to be not political. Only to fight the enemies of the state. Should they have shown to be more political and remove Hitler? Yes! Should they make a coup? Yes! But that's from the point of view of today. From then it was nothing clear.
Also the political point of view has to be seen in the Wehrmachtsausstellung especially. The leading historician is a leftist, a radical. And the financer had severe familiar reasons to hate the Wehrmacht. So they did not want to see these facts:

1. The Wehrmacht was a place for many people to hide of the Nazis, including Jews.
2. The officers and soldiers were (almostly) all tought free of Nazi ideology.
3. Nazi attempts to make tarining lessons in ideology were not favoured and most found a way not to go to.
4. Especially the combat units did not follow the ideology. So even the commissioner's order was only followed in single cases. Many commanders even did not give the order to the soldiers. The same way was dealt with other oral orders to commit atrocities.
5. Over 90% of the soldiers were conscripts.
6. The Wehrmacht as organisation was aquitted in Nuremberg.
7. Atrocities made by single soldiers were punished severely.
8. The war against the partisans was a dirty one. Here indeed some units in the hinterland were committing attrocities- like the partisans as well. But even here you have to differenciate. And this is not done by this show. It is aimed to attack the Wehrmacht per se and not single units or soldiers. As milions of soldiers were just fighting it is not only unfair but plainly wrong and comes from a certain political pov and familiar reasons. Not only bad researches have to be said against it, but also lies as well as Soviet war propaganda. The whole show has a political aim far away from being objective or enlightened. From a historician's point of view it has to be seen as political show. The aim is not achieved.

Adler
 
oh yeah, the the average soldier and german was completely free of nazi ideology, germany was just held hostage by a few fanatics...
thats a historical lie that may or may not have been necessary after 45 to carry on, but it is a lie nevertheless...
you may see that more clearly in austria than in germany, because no de-nazification took place over here due to political reasons (austria managed to be viewed as germany's first victim in the peace treaty, becoming an independent state again to make it free of soviet influence and being offically neutral as part of the west, although hitler was mostly welcomed by the population in 38 and the germans took control completely peaceful after a referendum pro "anschluss" - the annexion by germany - had took place)
former nazis were incorporated into the political parties, became teachers and civil servants, something you can still recognize in the thinking of older people.
and those were not ss officers, but average people...
 
Trust Adler to turn this into a warcrimes thread!

But since we're on the subject: The lumping of the blame for warcrimes/Nazism exclusively onto the SS rather than the Wehrmacht stinks of people (Germans etc) trying to rationalize their own troubled past by shovelling the blame onto the hardcore Nazi organizations rather than accepting that they too might have been in the wrong. I'm not saying that the Wehrmacht was worse than the SS, or that your average Landser was a monster, just that all of Germany was happily taken for a ride by the Nazis, and the Wehrmacht was complicit in that, especially at high levels where the top brass would have been aware of or even involved in exactly what the SS was up to.

To a certain extent soldiering should not be political, and the German army especially the Prussian parts of it had a strong tradition of apolitical soldiering. To a certain extent this is admirable. But when you find yourself co-operating in the murder of millions of people based soley on religon or crazy racial theories, you have to question the rationality of such an attitude.

One interesting thing to note that German generals would often talk about 'mistakes' rather than 'morals' when talking about the Nazis. ie pre-war persecution of Jews was 'wrong' becuase it drove away Jewish scientists. Bad treatment of captured Russians was 'wrong' becuase now the Russians will treat us the same way, etc etc. That such acts were 'wrong' in and of themselves doesn't seem relevent.

Thanks to those who posted on-topic responses. Very interesting. :)
 
Darth Pugwash, I am sorry but this happens if someone talks about this topic. Anyway you have to see that the Prussian tradition was diametral against Nazism. All who say it is part of Nazism did not learn history correctly. Also the German generals did act when it became too cruel in 1941. It was way too late and, as I said, the Wehrmacht failed to prevent Hitler. But that was only one factor. It is more wrong to say the Wehrmacht was a pillar of the regime. Hitler used them. He needed them. But he didn't trust them. And he used people he trusted to get over the command. While the other tried to get rid of him. If you see the persons involved in the plot of 20th July it is a Who's who of the Wehrmacht: Generaloberst Guderian, Generalfeldmarschall Rommel, General v. Strachwitz, General Halder, Admiral Canaris,... The one sympathisizing is much longer.
Hitler was abusing the Prussian traditions in the Wehrmacht.

Holy king:
Austria was the land to annex Germany in 1933. That is much more correct to say that Austria was the first victim. How said Billy Wilder so correctly:
The Austrians are a strange people. They make Hitler a German and Beethoven an Austrian.
He was damn right and a denazification did not happen really in Austria. That's bad. However it was not possible to punish all of them. And also not possible to keep them out of society. As Adenauer replied on the question in 1955 if the new generals of the Bundeswehr would be the generals of Hitler: I don't think the Allies would accept 18 years old generals.
Nevertheless to say the Wehrmacht was collectively a criminal organisation and all soldiers war criminals is plainly wrong. The facts are against that and you did not prove your points.

Adler

P.S.: I think I am not very able to answer on topic. So if you want we can stop that here, Darth.
 
Nevertheless the partisans were not protected. They did not wear a symbol recognizable on long distances, bear no arms openly and it is doubtful they were in some kind lead by responsible officers in the sense of the Hague Land War Order. Thus they were criminals in the eyes of the law. And as it was martial law the shooting or hanging was justified. Even if it was nazi martial law. If all of them were guilty is another question.

Its somewhat disturbing if not entirely suprising that the legal system seems to be somewhat lacking on the issue. I don't believe that the way that Hitler and his military forces conducted the war against Russia can be justified or explained purely by reprisals and martial law. That to my mind is an abuse of the very idea behind that law. I'd be willing to bet that are enough cases of civilians being rounded up without cause to show that the connection between partizan activity and civilian massacres is weak at best.

Yes, the Wehrmacht was aware about the crimes. And many even acted against Hitler. Did you hear about the 20th of July?

No, can't say I have. I must remember to look it up on wikipedia or something. :p

You can't lump the entire Wermacht into one group any more than you can condemn the entire RAF for Harris. You can't absolve them as a group either, and there's a simple reason for that. The Wehrmacht to my understanding consisted of all of Germany's armed forces (minus the SS who were nominally under its command but not a part of it per say). You could hardly say that Goering or even Doenitz in July 1944 were anti-nazi. Whilst I don't doubt some of the Luftwaffe or Kreigsmarine were opposed to the Nazis neither could be said to be actively against the regime as an organisation simply because the head of each was not.

The Heer on the other hand had no cohesiveness, no-one like Doenitz or Raeder or even Goering who could be turned to and said to be its leader. The resistance movement within the Heer came together through mutual friends and sounding out people who seemed sympathetic. We can all point to individual household names like Rommel or Stauffenberg who represented sections of it, but there is no way of absolving or damning the entire Heer simply because there is no way of saying what the entire Heer wanted or would do in any given situation. Each general has to be judged on their own.

Its always seemed to me that the German Army's high ranking officers fell into four main categories. The first opposed Hitler on moral grounds and had long worked against him. The second opposed him on the grounds that he was leading Germany down a certain creek without a paddle. This group tended to only become sizeable at times when the war went badly. The third and vast majority just didn't want anything to do with politics or didn't care much either way. The fourth either supported him without question out of a perverse sense of duty or actively supported him because they agreed with his policies.

The first and fourth groups have always struck me as smaller than the second and third. As I said, we can all point to household names who were nominally pro-resistance, but in the absence of the equivalent of a survey of Heer officers of general rank we simply cannot define whether they were pro or anti Nazi as a group. Simply taking the fact that they didn't tell Hitler of the plot is not an accurate summation of their feelings, it could be easily seen as the sense of protecting fellow officers rather than any support for the resistance cause as a whole.

One interesting thing to note that German generals would often talk about 'mistakes' rather than 'morals' when talking about the Nazis. ie pre-war persecution of Jews was 'wrong' becuase it drove away Jewish scientists. Bad treatment of captured Russians was 'wrong' becuase now the Russians will treat us the same way, etc etc. That such acts were 'wrong' in and of themselves doesn't seem relevent.

Very good point, I believe Beevor mentions this in his book Berlin when remarking about studies of captured German generals after the war. The feeling from them was mostly that they had been at worst betrayed and at worst horribly misunderstood by the allies. There was almost no ability to link cause and effect amongst them.
 
Austria was the land to annex Germany in 1933. That is much more correct to say that Austria was the first victim.

i'd say neither, you cant say austria annexed germany because the head of the nsdap was an austrian.
austria was a parlamentarian democracy on the edge of a civil war at that time (which broke out a year later and ended in the victory of the austrian clerical-fascists), whose government had no control whatsoever over germany, but i guess you didnt mean that one completely serious...

Nevertheless to say the Wehrmacht was collectively a criminal organisation and all soldiers war criminals is plainly wrong. The facts are against that and you did not prove your points.

i never said every single soldier was a war criminal, so i gueass i have nothing to prove there.
as an organization the first "criminal" act of the wehrmacht was attacking poland for a criminal regime to expand...
and there where actual war crimes commited by entire wehrmacht units that had been ordered officially, that contradicting your inital post where you implied that it was mainly the ss who commited the war crimes plus a few black sheep in the wehrmacht (and you cant even completely distinguish those as totally separate entities, since as the war went on, whole wehrmacht units where incorporated in the ss by order)
 
I think it's because the Germans took on so much of the world and came close to winning. Is there the same sort of difference re-enacting Napoleon's battles?
 
as an organization the first "criminal" act of the wehrmacht was attacking poland for a criminal regime to expand...

The whole idea that for a soldier to fight can be a warcrime is ridiculous. Morally reprehensible or not armies in general know that soldiers don't play politics, (without going banana-republic at least) and the Wehrmacht took this view as practically a religion. A good example of this would be that a Wehrmacht wasn't allowed to vote, this can give you a pretty good idea of how Germans felt on that issue.
 
PH, the Partisan war was fought brutally on both sides where attrocities were common. Nevertheless the partisans per se were not protected by the rules of war. Thus their execution was no war crime. If there were many more people killed is another thing.
Göring ran the Luftwaffe, but despite his party memebrship it reamained as unpolitical as the other branches. And the Kriegsmarine refused to make the "German Greetings" very long. While it is true that there were these 4 categories of generals, although groups 1 and 2 were overlapping and some from group 3 in the other groups from their attitudes, who was used to conduct the coup? And who should protect the new government? The Wehrmacht or especially the Ersatzheer (the reserve army). But all I want to say is that the damnation of the Wehrmacht is wrong.
At last the German officers were tought to be responsible for the actions of their soldiers. The soldiers had to act without being responsible. That was the old Prussian tradition. It was a good one but in the end failed dramatically when kidnapped by a gangster regime. Now they could give orders which resulted in attrocities. But even then these orders were in many cases to given to the soldiers. The so called Kommissarsbefehl for example was unknown even to some higher ranking officers until far after ww2. Their generals did not give the order to them. As it was a duty not to obey illegal orders. For the officers. That was also the moment the German resistance was forming.
Because of that the generals did not feel responsible for the actions the nazis did/ordered. The word mistake should not be underestimated btw as it was the worst designition of a failure by a high ranking officer.

holy king, The Austrians were overrepresnetated in the Nazi organisations by far. Also Hitler did not get his German passport until 1932 on rather dubious circumstances. That's why I said it was more correct to say Germany was the first victim of Austria than the other way around. Not more or less.
Also an agression war was no war crime in 1939 and contrary to the Nuremberg Trials such did not exist until Nuremberg. Anyway I did never say the Wehrmacht had no units which made attrocities. That is as wrong as to say the SS had only units making attrocities. But to damn the Wehrmacht, making them equal with the SS or NKWD, is wrong.

Adler
 
That's why I said it was more correct to say Germany was the first victim of Austria than the other way around.
But that simply isn't true. Whatever the origins of an individual, that doesn't equate to Austrian annexation of Germany.
Was France conquered by Corsica because of Napoleon? Russia by Georgia because of Stalin? Egypt by Kurdistan because of Saladin? No. So why Germany by Austria?

Edit: Changed "Sardinia" to "Corsica".
 
holy king, The Austrians were overrepresnetated in the Nazi organisations by far. Also Hitler did not get his German passport until 1932 on rather dubious circumstances. That's why I said it was more correct to say Germany was the first victim of Austria than the other way around. Not more or less.

Still, it wasn't the Austrians who voted AH.

Although I agree that the story of Austria as simply another victim is more or less a fable.
 
PH, the Partisan war was fought brutally on both sides where attrocities were common. Nevertheless the partisans per se were not protected by the rules of war. Thus their execution was no war crime. If there were many more people killed is another thing.

I don't agree it was another thing at all since the justification of the nature of the war given to the generals, coupled with the deliberate mixing of jews and undesirables into the category of partizans meant that officers could push the issue under the carpet and ignore what was going on in their areas of responsibility.

Göring ran the Luftwaffe, but despite his party memebrship it reamained as unpolitical as the other branches. And the Kriegsmarine refused to make the "German Greetings" very long.

That wasn't my point Adler, my point was you can assign some sense of the direction the Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine might go by the fact that it had a specific leader whose motivations and beliefs can be studied. No such person exists in the Heer, people have to fall back on studying a range of generals.

While it is true that there were these 4 categories of generals, although groups 1 and 2 were overlapping and some from group 3 in the other groups from their attitudes, who was used to conduct the coup? And who should protect the new government? The Wehrmacht or especially the Ersatzheer (the reserve army). But all I want to say is that the damnation of the Wehrmacht is wrong.

Fair enough, I agree the Wehrmacht cannot be damned in its entirety. At the same time it cannot be assumed that a moral majority existed either.

At last the German officers were tought to be responsible for the actions of their soldiers. The soldiers had to act without being responsible. That was the old Prussian tradition. It was a good one but in the end failed dramatically when kidnapped by a gangster regime. Now they could give orders which resulted in attrocities. But even then these orders were in many cases to given to the soldiers. The so called Kommissarsbefehl for example was unknown even to some higher ranking officers until far after ww2. Their generals did not give the order to them. As it was a duty not to obey illegal orders. For the officers. That was also the moment the German resistance was forming.

I find it very unlikely that the higher ranking officers did not know of the Commissar order. Even if they didn't know of that specific order there is more than enough evidence to suggest that the majority of officers would have come into contact with a number of immoral orders during the war, especially around the time of the start of Barbarossa.

Because of that the generals did not feel responsible for the actions the nazis did/ordered. The word mistake should not be underestimated btw as it was the worst designition of a failure by a high ranking officer.

I think you're missing the point, failing is one thing but they didn't seem to express concern about failing to act against the Nazis, nor shame at fighting for such a morally corrupt regime. Their concern was not that what had been done was morally wrong, but that it was impractical at the time. They seemed more concerned that Hitler had interfered with the war effort than they were with anything else. The important point then is not how deeply the felt their failure, but what the underlying things they felt they had failed in.
 
Losing countries like Germany and the American South always like to pretend they could win in little reenactments.
 
'WWII Germany' worship is annoying. Like these WWII freaks who think the universe only existed from 1939 to 1945 and say things like "I don't support the holocaust but I wish the Germans had won the war."

But German/Nazi-phobia is equally if not more annoying.
 
PH,

All I said is, that if you want to make a show of Wehrmacht attrocities the pictures of Partisan executions have to be exactly proven. If it was a partisan then it was no crime. If it was someone else...

The commissioners order was partly not given further by the generals, sometimes their lieutenants did not publish it. In any ways it was possible even for higher ranking officers not to get to know about that. Also it was the resistance of the Wehrmacht, which lead eventually to the end of that order.

Also be aware that showing emotions for Prussian officers were not tolerated in general. Also they did not feel responsible for these crimes.

Adler
 
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