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[BTS] GLH with isolated start

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by earthy, Oct 16, 2019.

  1. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    I recently started an emperor game as Gilgamesh(fractal, normal speed/size) where I got an isolated start. It's a pretty damn nice start, with 2 gold, a floodplains river, stone, and ample food on a round island I can fogbust with 6-7 warriors. There's room for maybe 7-8 super cities, or 12+ nice cities if they share a bit of food. With the 12+ city route, I can get about 7 or 8 coastal cities with the rest working the flood plains cottages or running scientists. Pyramids are definitely being grabbed in my capital.

    Would GLH be worth it in this scenario? I know I won't see much benefit from it with domestic trade routes, but overseas trade routes will be huge when I can get them. I'm also going to be rushing Astronomy anyways to meet people, so it seems like there is some logic to grabbing GLH. There's also a few potential city locations for 2nd or 3rd city with 4-5 forests I can chop into it, so I have no doubts that I can get it if I want it.

    On the flip side, going GLH will delay my settler production, will delay how long it takes me to start running scientists, and thus delay my bulbs towards Astro. Effectively I'd be getting my trade routes later, but they'd be worth a lot more. After meeting people I would also want to give that investment a chance to pay for itself, which would likely mean I wouldn't have the strength/techs to stop an AI that's getting out of control, or take advantage of a weak one.

    Curious to hear what everyone's thoughts are on GLH in isolation. I can see some pros and cons for both arguments, but I just don't know which argument wins out.
     
  2. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    In my (admittedly limited) experience GLH in isolation is strictly a long-term investment, not a short term one. If you have islands you can settle for "overseas" domestic trade routes and terrible land otherwise, maybe, but if you have good land to settle I'd focus on settling the land.
     
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  3. dankok

    dankok Chieftain

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    What AcaMetis said. Focus on settling land. Does your island have Marble? If so being isolated here may really be a godsend for going for a Cultural Win.
     
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  4. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    I think I have to agree with you both. It sounds very synergistic with astro rush, bur really it will slow me down significantly in the early game. I'll get maybe 40 GPT extra after reaching Astro, but is that actually worth delaying settling the second gold, settling all the high food locations, running rep scientists, etc? Probably not.. Reaching astro earlier would also allow me to sell outdated techs for gold sooner, which combined with earlier GPT trades might provide a comparable yield at an earlier date.

    Also I do have marble, but I hadn't really considered a cultural victory. I haven't gone for one of those in ages and I'm not sure how I would even pull it off in isolation. Wouldn't it be a lot more difficult without religions for monasteries and cathedrals?
     
  5. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Well, on Emp you can try to bulb/oracle a religion or two, especially Philo shouldn't be a problem. And if you have marble you can build the most important wonder for culture, the Sist. Chapel. Music would be even a triple good investment (Sist. Chapel, GA and cathedrals --> they have different names for each religion). The 2. most imp. wonder is the parthenon, so to beeline Aesth/ Lit/ Drama/ Music should be your preference. Your settings cry for a culture victory, because on top of that you are CRE and PRO and with your cheaper courthouses you can reduce maintenance so that you can run a very high culture slider later.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  6. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Do you have a savegame from the start? That game sounds really promising. At the moment, I tend to fail at IMM, so EMP would be very welcome.
     
  7. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    I do have the t0 save. I'll post it when i get home from work(about 7-8 hrs from now).

    And I'll have to consider the cultural victory, although I do need practice conquering other continents so I'm leaning towards that.

    What I'm really struggling with is build order for isolation. With guaranteed land I find it tempting to grow my capital while pumping out fogbusters, but I dont know if thats the best approach. And do i want to still cram as many cities as possible even if some of them wont be that great?

    Also whats a good date for astro?
     
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  8. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Make sure you're defended against barbs first, since no one is going to help you take care of them and they will come in to pillage your land eventually as there's no other targets for them to go after. That's not to say you need your entire island cleared and fogbusted, in fact this is often impractical in terms of unit cost (both maintenance and :hammers: wise), but make sure your frontier cities will not fall to two barb Archers suddenly appearing out from the darkness. After that just do the usual thing, building/whipping out settlers/workers and taking land. Don't delay expansion just because no AI is going to take your land, you want cities up and running early.

    In iso you want to settle only a few great cities until you're basically ready to bulb Astro, at which point overseas trade routes will make the less great cities crammed in everywhere pay for themselves easily. How many you want to settle early depends on a large number of factors, but just ask yourself if this city is going to pay for the increased maintenance that every single city will get from it.
     
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Good astro date depends on alot of factors, but anywhere between T130-T150 is ok.

    For GLH to be considered in isolation, you should really have room for at least two, but preferably 3 cities on a different landmass from your main island.

    I did a play for GLH in isolation on deity on this map, and I think it was good play. If optimal or not, I can't really say...
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ter-lxxx-isabella.473600/page-2#post-15348535

    As already mentioned earlier in the thread, the benefits from GLH really starts to shine once you reach astro, so if you make a play for GLH you should really go full tilt for a early astro-bulb.

    One thing that isn't mentioned (?) is the benefit of denying the AIs GLH. If you are unlucky, you can get some settler-spamming AI like say... Joao settle a gadzillion coastal cities and really run away with the game if they get GLH.
    But I don't know how much it really matters to deny an AI GLH on difficulties on emp and below.
     
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    In isolation you lack foreign trade routes. So with no nearby islands your really only getting 2 commerce extra per coastal city. (2x1c per trade route.)

    It might give you an early great merchant. Of course isolated you can't do a trade mission so you would likely have to settle him. Stone would lead more to mids. Then spam scientists in cities and try for an astronomy bulb.

    Without save hard to really say.
     
  11. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    here's the save for those interested
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Looks great and very strong, I am playing along but nevertheless on IMM.
     
  13. dankok

    dankok Chieftain

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    I shall give that start a try tonight. Never won culture on Emp/Imm before.
     
  14. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    The GLH is no option at all for me....
    Spoiler :
    I prefer to settle straight the Inland, there is no benefit in placing coastal cities, only much later. Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
     
  15. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    I think we approached it a bit differently. I ended up settling my second city 1n of the pig for an early triple food city that could pump out settlers and run early scientists. Glh there wouldnt be too hard with the marble, plains hill, and forests to the north, but whether its worth it is another question. Getting the cottages going nice and early does seem like a good option as well
     
  16. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Clearly settled Kish to help work cottages here. Same for Eridu.
     
  17. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    FP cottages are definitely nice and i want to work them asap, but In my mind the bigger priority was a) settling the second gold/wheat city and b) settling the pig/stone city so my capital could start on mids. I just feel like with this setup the capital is forced to take on the task of building settlers/workers on top of mids, whereas if I settle 1n of the pig that city can share the burden with its huge food surplus.
     
  18. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Pends what your priorities are here. Long term those cottages are going to be great. Mids never really goes too early, So you have time.

    Commerce from cottages will be great especially with a bureau capital.

    Even if you settled the 2nd gold city you will want to grow it to size 3-4 before running the gold.

    You can still build a nice NE city near the fish. 3xfood.
     
  19. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    Really my goal in the short term is just to get the economy running strong. Im definitely not a good enough player to say whats right or wrong, but my thought process kind of involves thinking of the the entite civ as if its a city. Just like you want to grow the city to size 3-4 before working the gold, i want to grow my civ in some strong food locations to make sure settling the cottage cities wont slow down further development too much.

    CS/bureau i dont really know how to work in with an astro rush. If i want it in time for the golden age it messes up the astro bulb, so i leave it until after astro. At that point i never know when to make the switch, or if its even worth the turn of anarchy
     
  20. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Actually you need to avoid Code of Laws and Civil Service for astronomy bulb. That or go lib and get astronomy that way. You can still have a great bureau capital after astronomy.

    Generally I think you tend to avoid top half of tree for Astronomy. You don't even need aesthetics.
     

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