Global/Nation Spells: Power requirements and Palace Mana

[Rainbowsand]

Posted it here because imo these changes should be applied onto all FfH mods (and some onto all of BTS, but i dont care)

Global is big because globe is big. In MoM to cast something like Armageddon there were research, mana and time reqs. All were big. And here in FfH we see (among the others, some of which are not entirely global by being dependent on number of cities are still look powerful) the Stasis Spell. Available to cast by the bunch of ragged settlers. Imo all nation big spells should be revised as to bind them to the sensible time/mana/tech requirements - with possible exceptions for the leaders who are gods, and those "spells" which are not spells, like "For the Horde". Particularly, stasis should be bound to autocast when ascendancy starts.

Also i am not certain about palace giving mana, the questions being "how?" and "why?" and also about quite unrealistic free palace in a first settlement.

About "how" it is quite clear: what is the flavour explanation for palace as manawell?

About "why" it also quite clear: this palace mana is uselles in most of games with exc of bonus and greatly lowers importance of mananodes.

In MoM so-seemly "palace mana" source was not the fortress, but the ruling wizard: that mana was dependant on 'spellbooks'.

About palace, that derelict of civ, that 'UGE bonus giving structure which pops up from nowhere in tiny village found by band of ragged survivors, i have a clear proposition:
to make palace upgradeable so palace:
- should give no commerce ~+2 research points +1 culture +1 happiness to represent the leader's work and influence - an average leader is clearly not much productive than (great) specialist and obvious fact is that to obtain 12 commerce from band of ragged... is unrealistic.;
- according rebalancing of an early tech costs/positions shall be required which almost rightfully was done in Orbis, that shall remove extremely annoying "Hunting - 306 turns" factor
- possibly on higher levels palace shall pour out mana from being also main temple complex to the nation's patron deity.
- shall have much humble starting model

 

[a_civilian]

Palace commerce is needed to reduce the disparity between low-commerce start locations and high-commerce start locations. For example, if it gives just 2 research, a civilization that starts out working two riverside tiles will research twice as fast as one that doesn't. The comparison becomes much worse when you add in commerce resources.

I agree that stasis should have a tech requirement, but only for gameplay reasons: the best time to cast it in most cases is at the outset of the game. With a midgame tech requirement it would no longer be able to stop early exploration/expansion and plot improvement and so it might actually be worth saving for an arms race or opponent golden age.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Really, there is no need to mess with the current palace system. It works fine. Sure, it might not be ultra-realistic, but it works very well in gameplay terms. The palace mana helps differentiate different civilizations, showing how their values and such impact things. The only thing I don't really like about it is how it can be traded away.

As far as the spells go, it isn't as you say, Stasis being "Available to cast by the bunch of ragged settlers." By the start of the game, Auric Ulvin, the Illians leader, already absorbed the Ice sphere(I think). He basically has the latent power of a god. With Calabim's River of Blood, both Alexis and Flauros are both immortal vampires with vast amounts of power. With things such as Hippus Warcry and Doviello Wild Hunt, those aren't magic so much as a representation of the people's traditions.

 

[DaveGold]

Also i am not certain about palace giving mana, the questions being "how?" and "why?" and also about quite unrealistic free palace in a first settlement.

As soon as you consider any other source for the mana, such as relics maybe, there's no reason why that source can't be manifest in the palace.

If you try to abstract the palace mana so it has to be developed during the game then you'd be bound to add it upon the development of KotE, which adds little or nothing to gameplay. You'd still then have the problem of where the mana can be accessed, for which the only solution is to provide it in cities connected to the palace. In other words, the implementation would look the same even if it became veiled from the players. Without any national mana at all there would also be very little use for adepts until you've researched one of the magic spheres such as elementalism, which would subtract from gameplay.

I think the national mana adds some character to the nations. It certainly encourages different styles of play with different nations.

 

[Breunor]

Interesting ideas Rainbowsand!

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Rainbowsand]

Palace commerce is needed to reduce the disparity between low-commerce start locations and high-commerce start locations. For example, if it gives just 2 research, a civilization that starts out working two riverside tiles will research twice as fast as one that doesn't. The comparison becomes much worse when you add in commerce resources.

And even much worse when you find five new technologies in the huts.

 

[Deon]

That's why we play without huts.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Playing without huts O_O

... overlords blind me

 

[Valkrionn]

FF handles that nicely: Huts can give out just a certain amount of beakers for a tech, rather than the full tech, and it scales to difficulty. Higher the difficulty, the fewer the beakers.

 

[Endovior]

the Stasis Spell. Available to cast by the bunch of ragged settlers.

No, available to be cast by Auric Ulvin, the reincarnation of the God of Winter. Who just happens to be among that 'bunch of ragged settlers'. There are reasons for this kinda thing, y'know.

 

[hbar]

Keep in mind that the "palace" is just a fancy name for the seat of power of a people. The mana does not come bubbling out of a building like some magical fondue pot. It is a representation of the faith, alignment, and character of the people who have arisen from barbarism to form a fledgling civilization. Any fledgling civilization will have the capacity to improve its knowledge (research), a set of communal values (civics) and certain shared beliefs and rituals (mana). None of this has anything to do with the actual building where the chief sits.

Every game is composed of a layer of abstractions. The larger the scope of the game, the more abstract it must become. Civ (and of course FfH) is abstract by design, because otherwise it wouldn't be fun.

 

[Annex]

How do you suggest making the palaces upgradeable? The current palace system seems good to me, and I dont think any of your suggestions are an improvement.

As has been explained by others, the mana does not come from the physical building itself. Its just because of the mechanics of Civilization that make mana available via palaces. In order to give each civ a distinct set of starting mana (and resources, as in the case of the Hippus and Mercurians), it was best just to make a unique building (the palace) give this.

 

[Emptiness]

like some magical fondue pot

Awesome.

 

[DaveGold]

How do you suggest making the palaces upgradeable? The current palace system seems good to me, and I dont think any of your suggestions are an improvement.

If I was to make a change to FFH it would probably be to customize the summer palace for each nation. At the moment they're very drab and could easily become an interesting national wonder.