Global Warming and all that Janx

Masada

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http://www.earthmagazine.org/earth/article/33d-7da-5-5

Hot as Hell: Firefighting foam heats up coal fire debate in Centralia said:
By some accounts, Hell on Earth is located directly below Centralia, Pa.: Smoke rises from the cracked ground, smoldering sinkholes open without warning, and what is left of the town’s abandoned houses and surrounding woodlands is scorched and covered in a layer of smelly sulfur. Once a productive mining town in eastern Pennsylvania’s valuable anthracite coal region, Centralia has been reduced to a smoky ghost town, lacking even a zip code, by an underground coal fire that has been burning for nearly 50 years.

In May 1962, a fire set in an unregulated dump spread to an exposed coal seam and soon invaded the maze of mine tunnels and coal seams underlying Centralia, once a close-knit coal-mining town of 2,600 residents, about an hour northeast of Harrisburg. Early attempts to put out the fires failed. In the 1980s, after a number of residents were sickened by carbon monoxide fumes and a 12-year-old child was nearly killed by a sudden ground collapse, the town was deemed uninhabitable and most of the residents were bought out and relocated.

More than 20 years after the last attempts to put out the flames, the Centralia inferno still shows no signs of burning out on its own, now burning along multiple coal seams in four different directions. Firefighting technology has come a long way in the past two decades, however, and now an innovative Texas-based company wants to take a crack at putting out Centralia’s fires, hoping to prove once and for all that valuable mines don’t need to be left to burn.
To extinguish, or not to extinguish?

Coal fires are a problem all over the world. Such fires endanger nearby communities, waste precious resources and produce tons of noxious and greenhouse gases. Centralia is not the only coal fire burning in the United States. In fact, it’s just one of 38 burning in Pennsylvania alone. The hundreds of underground fires in the United States, from Pennsylvania to Alabama to Wyoming, combined with the thousands thought to be burning in China, India and elsewhere, are one of the largest sources of carbon dioxide and pollution on Earth.

China alone loses between 100 million and 200 million tons of coal each year to mine fires, as much as 20 percent of their annual production, according to the International Institute for Geo-Information Science and Earth Observation, based in Enschede, Netherlands. The Institute estimates that carbon dioxide emissions from these fires are as high as 1.1 billion metric tons, more than the total carbon dioxide emissions from automobiles in the United States. Second to China is India, where 10 million tons of coal burns annually in mine fires, contributing a further 51 million metric tons of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.


In addition to carbon dioxide, “coal fires produce as many as 60 different toxic compounds, many of which are carcinogenic,” says Glenn Stracher, an expert on coal fires at East Georgia College in Swainsboro. Such toxins include arsenic, selenium, fluorine, sulfur, lead, copper, bismuth, tin, germanium and mercury, he says. Robert Finkelman, a medical geologist at the University of Texas at Dallas, estimates that 40 tons of mercury are released every year by uncontrolled coal fires, which is on a par with the amount produced by coal-fired power plants in the United States. “If we could extinguish those fires,” he says, “it would make a worthwhile contribution to reducing mercury pollution as well as carbon dioxide and other toxic elements.”

Despite their impact, many coal fires are left to burn because mine fires are too dangerous, costly and difficult to deal with. Part of the problem is that effective firefighting options are limited. Using water can cause steam explosions. Cement and fly ash slurries from the surface can sometimes be used to seal mine openings and cut off the fire’s oxygen and fuel supply, but this technique usually only works on smaller fires — not big blazes like Centralia, which has a cavernous network of oxygen-supplying tunnels. Another technique is to dig out the fire and smother it on the surface, but again, this technique is too dangerous and too costly to use on a fire as large as Centralia. Because of these firefighting problems, fires like Centralia aren’t extinguished unless they directly impact nearby communities or are near a gas line or are otherwise imminently dangerous, Stracher says.

The issue of how to deal with Centralia is particularly difficult for a state like Pennsylvania. “Pennsylvania has the largest abandoned mine problem in the country and we’re working with a limited budget,” says Tom Rathbun, a spokesperson for Pennsylvania’s Department of Environmental Protection (PDEP), based in Harrisburg. PDEP works closely with the federal Office of Surface Mining (OSM) to determine which of Pennsylvania’s many mine reclamation projects are the most pressing, and all funding must be approved by the federal agency.

After Congress passed the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act in 1977, OSM inventoried abandoned mines around the country and prioritized them according to danger to the public. Open pits, open mine shafts and exposed coal seams where fires might start were given priority-funding status, Priority 1. Putting out already-existing fires that were not deemed a direct danger to the public was not.

“Our first role is to prevent new fires from happening,” says Bill Ehler, a project manager with OSM. The best recourse for dealing with coal fires is to keep them from lighting in the first place, or to put them out early, before they get Centralia-sized, he says. “Centralia is a unique case. We tried to abate it not long after it ignited and found it was already too far out of control. Our only option was to move the community, which took an act of Congress,” he says. “Buying out a town is generally not our usual process.”

After it was abandoned in the late 1980s, Centralia was classified as a Priority 2 site, where it has remained, as the fires are not “presenting a danger to the public at this time,” Rathbun says. “The problem is that Pennsylvania has about $1.4 billion in Priority 1 sites,” he says. “We need to take care of those before we worry about Centralia. The Office of Surface Mines simply will not approve spending most of our budget on one project with low priority.”

But as practical as that assessment might be, Stracher, who has studied Centralia for 25 years, begs to differ. “They aren’t taking into account the environmental consequences of Centralia, which are catastrophic,” he says. “Even from an energy point of view, it’s a catastrophe. That’s a lot of high-grade coal under there that’s completely going to waste.” And it’s releasing dangerous toxins into the air as well as polluting the groundwater, he says. Those are some good reasons to try to put out the flames.
Previous attempts to extinguish Centralia

“We get an awful lot of calls from people who have lots of ideas about how to put out Centralia,” Rathbun says. “Centralia is a different animal though, a very large and complex system. Somebody would have to do some serious geologic work and make a plan that would have an almost guaranteed chance of working before we would seriously consider it.”

Nobody knows how large the area burning under Centralia is today. The last detailed study of the fire was in 1983: PDEP and OSM hired GAI Consultants, an engineering and environmental consulting firm based in Pittsburgh, to map the fire and develop mitigation plans. At that time, GAI found that the fire was spread over almost 80 hectares, and estimated it could eventually burn close to 1,500 hectares. But now, says Stanley Michalski, a geologist on that team, “we really have no idea how big it is or where exactly it’s burning.”

At the end of the study, GAI estimated it would cost upward of $600 million to completely dig out the fire, which was the only viable firefighting technique at the time. “Everybody choked on that number,” Michalski says. And so the federal government bought out the town for $42 million (although a few residents refused to leave), and for the next 20 years, the fire has continued to burn.

Then, two years ago, Michalski drew up a new, detailed plan to cut off one of Centralia’s four main fires. “Centralia’s fire is shaped like the letter H, with four limbs moving off in four different directions,” he says. Michalski, who has drawn up successful coal firefighting plans for several other Pennsylvania fires, proposed cutting off the fire’s northwest limb by filling strategic slices of the mine with coal combustion ash that wouldn’t fuel the advancing fire. “If this method worked on this one limb, we could then build three more barriers and effectively contain the fire in a box where it could eventually burn itself out,” he says.

Michalski took his idea to PDEP and was met with a lot of positive feedback, he says. But, to his knowledge, no further action was taken by the agency.
A new approach

Now, a commercial firefighting company, CAFSCO Fire Control, based in Fort Worth, Texas, has its sights set on Centralia. The company’s compressed nitrogen foam system — originally invented to combat forest fires — has been adapted to fight underground coal fires with much success.

“There are no limits to the types of mines or size of fire that we can put out,” says Lisa LaFosse, co-owner of CAFSCO. “We can fill up any mine with foam,” she says. Furthermore, adds Mark Cummins, founder and co-owner of CAFSCO, the company’s system is safer and more cost-effective than the tried-and-true technique of digging out the fires. “We can put out a fire at a tenth of the usual cost, and we don’t even have to see the fire to fight it,” he says. CAFSCO’s method would also allow for future mining of an area’s unburned coal seams, unlike digging out the fire.

CAFSCO’s biodegradable fire-suppressing foam works in a number of ways to put out underground coal fires. Pumped into an underground mine through surface boreholes, the foam quickly expands to fill all the available space, saturating the interior of the mine from floor to ceiling, effectively soaking all the fuel and smothering the fire. The expansion of the foam also creates positive pressure in the underground spaces of the mine, forcing out any unconsumed oxygen that could further feed the fire. CAFSCO’s foam differs from other types of firefighting foam in that it contains no oxygen, only nitrogen, which works chemically to smother the fire.

The system has worked in dozens of coal fires across the United States, according to CAFSCO. In 2007, CAFSCO put out its largest coal fire yet, pumping more than 700 million gallons of foam into the Consolidated Buchanan No. 1 coal mine in Claypool Hill, Va. Cummins says Centralia could be put out in about a month, for about $60 million. “I understand the difficulties of the Centralia fire, but I know what this foam is capable of doing and I really believe we can put it out,” he says.

Stracher, for one, thinks CAFSCO can get the Centralia job done. “I’ve seen this foam in action and it’s really unbelievable what it can do,” he says. Rathbun, however, remains wary of the new foam technique because he has not yet seen it in use. Before PDEP would consider approving such a project, “we would need to see more evidence, track records, proof that it works,” he says. “Centralia is a huge project and we don’t have the money to experiment with it.”

CAFSCO staff are currently working with PDEP on some smaller fires in Pennsylvania’s anthracite region, hoping to establish a relationship with the agency and work their way up to Centralia. “I’m about ready to retire and I’d love to go out on the Centralia fire,” Cummins says. “Hopefully we can convince them it’s high time to put this thing out.”

Budget issues aside, Stracher sees extinguishing Centralia as an opportunity to change how coal fires are dealt with, not just in the United States, but also around the world. “If we can put out Centralia, one of the most problematic and longest-burning fires in the U.S., it could be a turning point,” he says. “Now that we have the technology to deal with this staggering source of pollution, it’s high time we start putting it to use.”

Is innovate policy like this enough to deal with global warming? If not, should we still focus on low hanging fruit like this?
 
Always always always go for the low hanging fruit first. One reason being, what's high hanging today may be low hanging tomorrow, due to technological change. But if the more difficult cleanup jobs are still worth the cost, even at today's prices - and I think they are - then we need to start those too.

When governments get together and talk trade deals, which of course includes control of greenhouse gases, they need to account for coal burning of all kinds, not just intentional kinds.
 
Is innovate policy like this enough to deal with global warming?
There is too much to deal with. Like playing that whack-a-mole game with millions of moles popping up a thousand at a time with only a hundred whackers.

Obviously though people should do all they can & this issue (which I wasn't even aware of) should definitely be tackled with all the money & resources necessary (20% of all coal, that's friggin huge! :eek: ).

CAFSCO’s biodegradable fire-suppressing foam works in a number of ways to put out underground coal fires. Pumped into an underground mine through surface boreholes, the foam quickly expands to fill all the available space, saturating the interior of the mine from floor to ceiling, effectively soaking all the fuel and smothering the fire. The expansion of the foam also creates positive pressure in the underground spaces of the mine, forcing out any unconsumed oxygen that could further feed the fire. CAFSCO’s foam differs from other types of firefighting foam in that it contains no oxygen, only nitrogen, which works chemically to smother the fire.
I'd hate to get trapped in a cavern with that stuff (course probably burning to death is worse)! Sounds like a good a plan as any though (along with drastic reduction of fossil fuel use, of course, which won't happen in time).
 
These coal vein fires can last a long time. In Planitz, now a part of the city of Zwickau,in Germany, a coal seam that had been burning since 1476 could only be quenched in 1860. In Dudweiler (Saarland) a coal seam fire ignited around 1668 and is still burning today.
 
and more oxygen means more humans right?
No but more Co2 still means more plant life. The forests never felt better, that is just how it is.
In general the planet seems to do a pretty good job in countering Co2. Obeying the same laws of evolution as any entity composed of life the planet is naturally prepared to fight global changes of many kinds.
This capability is of course limited however. So a big bang may come.

On the op: What is needed here is a cost-benefit equation in relation to conventional means to counter Co2-emissions. Without it this phenomena of burning coil mines is of not much use for the global-warming debate.

Anyway as I don't believe global warming to be really a man-made thing I'll take this chance to post the following:

A retired physics professor became the latest public figure to debunk the myth of a "consensus" behind man-made global warming when he slammed big money interests for pushing climate change propaganda that was at odds with real science in a speech yesterday.
[...]
Hayden pointed out that global warming is taking place throughout the solar system, underscoring the fact that natural causes and not human beings are driving climate change, which has occurred throughout history.

"Yes, the polar ice caps are shrinking . . . on Mars," he said, "On Mars, the ice caps are melting and small hills are disappearing," adding that warming trends were also being observed on Jupiter, Saturn and Triton.

Citing the fact that human activity is responsible for just 3 per cent of carbon-dioxide emissions on earth, Hayden said that carbon levels in the atmosphere have been rising and falling for 400,000 years.

"We are at the lowest levels in the last 300,000 years," he said. "During the Jurassic period, we had very high levels of carbon dioxide."

[...]

"In a report titled "The First Global Revolution" (1991) published by the Club of Rome, a globalist think tank, we find the following statement: "In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill.... All these dangers are caused by human intervention... The real enemy, then, is humanity itself."
Source

Sorry for derailing this thread, but the title seems to give leverage for more general aspects. ^^
 
Hayden pointed out that global warming is taking place throughout the solar system
The thing is, if you start following his long chain of links, some are outdated, but one of them for instance reads:

In what is largely a reversal of an August announcement, astronomers today said Pluto is undergoing global warming in its thin atmosphere even as it moves farther from the Sun on its long, odd-shaped orbit.

Pluto's atmospheric pressure has tripled over the past 14 years, indicating a stark temperature rise, the researchers said. The change is likely a seasonal event, much as seasons on Earth change as the hemispheres alter their inclination to the Sun during the planet's annual orbit.

They suspect the average surface temperature increased about 3.5 degrees Fahrenheit, or slightly less than 2 degrees Celsius.

Pluto remains a mysterious world whose secrets are no so easily explained, however. The warming could be fueled by some sort of eruptive activity on the small planet, one astronomer speculated.

The increasing temperatures are more likely explained by two simple facts: Pluto's highly elliptical orbit significantly changes the planet's distance from the Sun during its long "year," which lasts 248 Earth years; and unlike most of the planets, Pluto's axis is nearly in line with the orbital plane, tipped 122 degrees. Earth's axis is tilted 23.5 degrees.

Though Pluto was closest to the Sun in 1989, a warming trend 13 years later does not surprise David Tholen, a University of Hawaii astronomer involved in the discovery.

"It takes time for materials to warm up and cool off, which is why the hottest part of the day on Earth is usually around 2 or 3 p.m. rather than local noon," Tholen said. "This warming trend on Pluto could easily last for another 13 years
At which point I detect wilful missrepresentation of facts and flip the bird at Mr. Hayden.
 
Ayatollah So said:
Always always always go for the low hanging fruit first. One reason being, what's high hanging today may be low hanging tomorrow, due to technological change. But if the more difficult cleanup jobs are still worth the cost, even at today's prices - and I think they are - then we need to start those too.

Agreed, I think that's a commonsensical approach to the problem. One that should be embraced in preference to the whole: woolshirt fanatic thing.

Ayatollah So said:
When governments get together and talk trade deals, which of course includes control of greenhouse gases, they need to account for coal burning of all kinds, not just intentional kinds.

Sure, also agreed.

Narz said:
There is too much to deal with. Like playing that whack-a-mole game with millions of moles popping up a thousand at a time with only a hundred whackers.

I agree, but if America was, for instance, to pay to stop inadvertant coal burning in China do you believe that they could legitimately discount this against their own emissions as part of a broader international agreement.

Narz said:
Obviously though people should do all they can & this issue (which I wasn't even aware of) should definitely be tackled with all the money & resources necessary (20% of all coal, that's friggin huge! ).

Its equivalent to the transportion sector in the United States. Isn't that 12-14 per cent of the United States C02 emissions. Now, I wonder how much it would cost to propigate and pay for the implementation of best practice extraction in Chinese coal mines? I suspect somewhat less than the cost of an ETS. Innovations like these might be a viable means of achieving our end goals without resorting to completely cutting our own economic bollocks off. Would you accept these kind of solutions and the potential for offests as part of a broader international regulatory framework Narz?

Narz said:
I'd hate to get trapped in a cavern with that stuff (course probably burning to death is worse)! Sounds like a good a plan as any though (along with drastic reduction of fossil fuel use, of course, which won't happen in time).

I actually think it will. Merks more or less hit upon the point that many biofuels are more or less at the point at which they're more economical than extracting remaining pertroluem products -- shale oil, heavy crude etc. Sure, it might take a decade probably two to roll out the system at the kind of scale we want but I think its inevitable now. The key concern of mine is that it is the bio-fuel is made out of a legitimate enviromentally friendly and sustainable feedstock. I also think thats inevitable because government will have to be intimately involved both to cover the cost of implementation and to arrange the neccesary legislative assistance to keep the ball rolling. In exchange for those it will obviously require that legitimate enviromental concerns are met.
 
I had been only marginally aware that coal seam fires existed - but had no idea of the magnitude of the problem or that such fires are left burning and polluting for decades!:mad:
It's a total no-brainer for me that these bureaucrats should get off their lard-butts and get that fire extinguished, especially now that a more cost-effective method exists.
Win-win-win-win: eliminate air pollution, lessen global warming, save coal resources, eliminate a safety hazard.... For a measly $60 Mio...? WTF are they waiting for?

Edit: Oh, and to the questions: this wouldn't be enough to counter global warming in itself, but it would certainly help! And, YES, such inconceivable aberrations should be the first adressed! Not only warming emissions, but totally unnecessary and harmful ones!
 
I had been only marginally aware that coal seam fires existed - but had no idea of the magnitude of the problem or that such fires are left burning and polluting for decades!:mad:
It's a total no-brainer for me that these bureaucrats should get off their lard-butts and get that fire extinguished, especially now that a more cost-effective method exists.
Win-win-win-win: eliminate air pollution, lessen global warming, save coal resources, eliminate a safety hazard.... For a measly $60 Mio...? WTF are they waiting for?

Edit: Oh, and to the questions: this wouldn't be enough to counter global warming in itself, but it would certainly help! And, YES, such inconceivable aberrations should be the first adressed! Not only warming emissions, but totally unnecessary and harmful ones!
I knew that if I waited long enough, somebody would post this for me.
 
Yep, plants are able to absorb about 450 Gt a year by photosynthesis. With no human emissions they'd simply absorb the 440Gt emitted plus compensation for any wobbles in the emissions. It just can't cope with a constant increase greater than 10Gt.

About 260 Gt is emitted and absorbed by the oceans, also with an overcapacity of about 10Gt. So a constant increase in emissions of over 20 Gt will lead to an increase of CO2 in the air.
 
Masada said:
Innovations like these might be a viable means of achieving our end goals without resorting to completely cutting our own economic bollocks off. Would you accept these kind of solutions and the potential for offests as part of a broader international regulatory framework Narz?
Well there is an extraordinary amount of waste that can be cut without reducing functionality at all.

I read somewhere (some official govt. study not some greenie website) that we can reduce something like 1/3 of carbon emissions at a net profit. In other words 1/3 of carbon emissions are pure waste (trucks idling, A/C blasting with the windows open in office buildings, 78 degree apartment complexes in winter, stuff like what this thread is about).

However, I still think we're going to have to get over our philosophy that money = entitlement to do whatever the **** you want : "I'm rich, therefore I can take 45 minute showers, have a four acre sprawling mansion with 17 bathrooms, etc.". Al Gore doesn't do his message any favors when he lives like this.

Ecology should trump everything else but instead it's become a political issues & one that do-gooders try to force down the throats of the rest of the population. Leading to crap like "for every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three" & other immaturity.

If people don't realize at a gut level why the environment is important they won't make much change. And they won't until it's too late so we need to create legislation to motivate them financially to do the right thing. Unfortunately, right now there is little to no motivation - electricity is cheap, gas is relatively cheap, food subsidies are all backwards & people just don't understand or care that much. The issue of the global environment is overwhelming & most people feel individually fairly powerless. And they are, individually. Without a combination of political & public will (and those in power who can make people understand) we're unlikely to avoid massive global disaster. IMO, we can't avoid it anyway, but we can mitigate it, hopefully.
 
Just so, Narz! Good post! :goodjob:

Germany is a good bit further along this path than the US (though by no means perfect) - and we get laughed at as 'tree-huggers' by intransigent Americans who think reducing emissions automatically means a much lower standard of living.

IT AIN'T SO, PEOPLE!

It would NOT hurt the US economy to reduce wastage - in fact, since to do so would mean modernization and higher efficiency, the net effect would probably be positive.
 
1) Al Gore sucks
2) if he powers that house with solar power than? (you can heat water with sunlight to quite nice temperatures)

@Fr8monkey :eek:
 
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