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Gma02: “First Come, First Severed” - Training Day Game

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by gmaharriet, May 11, 2007.

  1. greygamer

    greygamer Feudal Lord

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    Some thoughts
    This would usually be my thinking and I often road before mining. It takes less turns, gives a gold benefit and opens up more options. However in this case won't Despotism nullify the trade bonus? I am still all for roading first because it does get you more options early on. There are nine tiles that can be reached either side of ther river after border expansion so the choice is between a mountain & hill or two Grassland (one with a bonus shield). I like to leave 'difficult' terrain improvements until I have some extra workers as a rule (especially without the industrious trait). Has anyone done the math on time to complete a granary taking into account the various tile improvement strategies.
    IOW are we going for a settler or granary build first as this has a major effect on priorities for tile improvment. also there is the question of when to build additional worker(s). A possible option is to improve the three BG tiles running NE or at least some of them and look to cross the river around the time of expansion.
     
  2. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    That is what I get for not turning on the grids on the map - gigged by an Eagle Scout.

    Of all the fields available that you do not want to touch it is the bonus grass due north of the city - relative to all the other fields available it is a low value field.

    The 2 should move 1 north (this is starting to sound like a sandlot football huddle).

    I'm still not sure if irrigating the cows at this stage is not a hair premature, as it will drive growth we will have trouble keeping pace with in terms of improved fields. And since the city should probably start a granary (Celts have pots, no?) once the warrior is done, the biggest need is going to be shields before food at least until the granary finishes. I may have the figures all cocked up but I think the one extra food from the watered cows will just be wasted until the granary finishes.

    But the suggestions by the esteemed lurkers are good ones and I would follow either one of them.

    Edit to reflect cross post with greygamer - the despotism penalty affects food, not commerce. Republic gives a +1 commerce bonus, so a oaded riverside grass field give 3 gold instead of 2.

    Second edit to add new information:

    Now that I have had a chance to review the position again I am going to assign some reading

    Bamspeedy's Diety Settlers is as good a template to follow in this game as any I can think of.
     
  3. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    Oh, I am sooooo excited to have such a great group here of players and lurkers. Scout, I can't tell you how excited I am to see you easing out of retirement...maybe I can actually get you into a game when this one is done, huh? :D

    Ok, good discusstion. I'm inclined to road #1 first, and will note the #2 being one tile farther north than shown on the map, but how about roading the cow for the gold next, since that tile WILL be worked from the start? Then either back to #1 for mining or roading the more northerly #2 and mining it? I think that will take the entire first turnset.

    Another question...do we want to have only a single warrior before starting the granary? I'm assuming he'll go scouting and at this level with only 1 happy citizen an MP might be important and do we even want to consider a chop to speed the granary?

    Research...Warrior Code for the Archers or Wheel for the trade bait? Too bad we have so little use for the wheel ourselves...hmmm...unless we have no iron. :hmm:

    I'll wait to play until we have some agreement. I've rewritten twice as I've noticed more posts written since I started this...hope it still makes some sense.
     
  4. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    Either way you go I would not irrigate the cows before the granary completes, and I would not spend any time cutting lumber. The worker is going to be behind the growth curve whatever happens and moving to the forests and chopping will only make it worse.

    You could go warrior/warrior/granary and not slow things down...

    Warrior Code makes a good first research project as I like archers for active defense at this stage then head straight down the Monarchy path for an early government change. Since we don't start with Alphabet and several other nations do I would be a little leery of the Philosophy gambit, and Republic is not our government of choice anyway.
     
  5. greygamer

    greygamer Feudal Lord

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    Sounds like a plan, as we don't know if we don't have iron so I'd go for WC. The extra gold could be used to offset any early happiness problems until we get a temple or hook some luxuries (assuming there are any to hook)

    I always get confused by that one :crazyeye:

    All excellent points, I would only chop forest if it was next to my city unless there was a pressing need to do so. Since we are going to be in war most of the time are there any alternatives to Monarchy? I agree going for Philosophy early would be a long shot with so many AI having Alphabet already.
     
  6. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    Ooooh!!! That makes a HUGE difference! I hadn't given Monarchy much consideration as a government, but Aabraxan had suggested it to me in an earlier PM. Guess I should have listened to him. :p

    Time to stop dithering and play! :cool:
     
  7. Aceman101

    Aceman101 Emperor

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    Lurkers Comment: I will be following this one. :D
     
  8. Tone

    Tone Deity Hall of Fame Staff

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    lurker's comment:
    I am probably misunderstanding you, Bede but just for the record, the despotism penalty does affect commerce as well as shields and food. You could well be saying that no tile in your capital radius will be subject to a despot penalty for commerce as there is no tile that will earn 3+ gold, which is correct. As you say, a roaded riverside tile gives 2 gold unless you get the +1 commerce bonus in a representative government. Sorry if that's the case and I've misread your comment. Either way it doesn't change your analysis of the situation.
    Looking forward to seeing what's out there!
     
  9. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    As usual, I can't make it through a turnset without more questions, but this is the type of situation I'm never sure what to do with. At turn 12 I can put the 3rd citizen on a river BG for growth in 5, granary in 14, or on a riverside forest for growth in 7, granary in 12. It seems to me the granary is more important right now, but would enjoy (and need) discussion of which would be better. I'm attaching my log (to date), screenies and another save.

    1 - 4000bc - Move settler east to grass. Woo hoo!!! We've got steak, um, I mean a cow in our 9-tile radius. Also another forest in our bfs.

    2 - 3950bc - Establish Entremont, warrior due in 5, research set to Warrior Code at 100%, due in 23. Worker N/E to BG on river.

    3 - 3900bc - Worker begins roading BG.

    4 - 3850bc - zzzzz

    5 - 3800bc - zzzzz

    6 - 3750bc - Worker goes to cow. Whoa! We have incense 2 tiles E N/E on a hill. :D

    7 - 3700bc - warrior -> warrior. Worker begins roading cow. Warrior heads East to explore along river. Town grows and lux slider set to 10%. New citizen working the roaded BG.

    8 - 3650bc - Warrior continues east, seeing a couple of mountains.

    9 - 3600bc - Warrior east.

    10 - 3550bc - Warrior climbs mountain to see plains, more mountains and river continuing. Worker completes road and heads back to mine previously roaded BG.

    IBT warrior -> granary in 20, growth due in 1.

    11 - 3500bc - New warrior set as MP and SCI slider reset to 100% for WC in 7. 1st warrior East, sees another mountain and a new river.

    IBT - Cultural border expand, revealing the coastline to the west and a goody hug 3 tiles S/E of Entremont.

    12 - 3450bc - Lux to 10% for new citizen. Warrior East. Must stop to ask question about new citizen.

    Empire:
    Spoiler :


    Entremont City View:
    Spoiler :
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Sashie VII

    Sashie VII Balance of Power

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    lurker's comment: Lux, and lots of long rivers. Very promising start, indeed. Somehow I feel that this is going to be far easier than gma anticipated earlier. :cool:
     
  11. downhill

    downhill Chieftain

    Joined:
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    First Come/First Severed team:

    lurker's comment: I've exchanged PMs with Harriet asking if I might claim a spot on the waiting list in case anyone on the team is forced to take a severance package. She has kindly agreed to allow this (depite my newbie status on CFC) and has graciously reminded my of the commitment expected.

    As such, this is a post to claim my place on the waiting list and to begin lurking.

    In case anyone is interested in my Civ history (brief but somewhat successful), I have spoilered it below.

    Thanks...

    Spoiler :
    Game 1: Chieftan – Histographic win as Germany on large continents. I won by histograph because I had no victory objective and didn’t work toward anything in particular, but just built up a balanced civ and conquered my own continent, plus a portion of the other. At this point I was just trying to figure out the mechanics and features of the game.

    Game 2: Chieftan – Domination win as Japan on large continents. Actually, I won by victory points very, very fast, but played on until I hit the dom limits. I only won by VP because I didn’t know enough to turn that victory condition off.

    Fiddling around: Found this site and read a few articles, so I got curious and played the early turns on a handful of random maps just to work at understanding settler factories and small-scale MM. Didn’t play these out to the finish as the objective was just to try out a few aspects of the game about which I’d read.

    Game 3: Regent – Conquest win as Mayans on large continents. This was pretty easy as I had the Mayans and a four-turn factory at my starting location. Talk about luck. One hairy spot when I started a war on the other continent for which I wasn’t really ready, but came through okay and learned about flexible defense against counterattacks.

    Game 4: Monarch – Diplo win as Mayans on standard continents. Another easy one. A ridiculously early SGL led to (the much desired) Pyramids and a (less than desired) early despotic GA. But with the Mayans and Pyramids, the rapid expansion was more like a rapid explosion. The hardest part of this game was having the patience to avoid conquering everyone while I waited to get Fission researched and the UN built. With a whopping tech lead, it was somewhat disappointing how easy it was to buy everyone in against the obvious UN opponent.

    Game 5: Monarch – Spaceship win on 100% random setup, which turned out to be English/continents/standard/3MM age/wet/warm/roaming barbs. Outcome has never really been in doubt, but the challenge was that the only resource I had within the borders of my original landgrab was rubber. I had to conquer iron, trade for horsies, conquer salt, conquer coal, conquer oil (until the PRNG granted me a generous gift at its first disappearance-reappearance). Aluminum and uranium appeared in cities I had already conquered when I got the needed techs.

    Game 6: Emperor - Spaceship win is eminent on 100% random setup, which turned our to be French/continents/huge/3MM age/dry/standard temp/raging(?) barbs. Slung ahead in research just before age change to IA. Had planned before the start to go for a culture win, but the land was absolutely horrible (read, desert and tundra) and it would have meant a very long period of conquest to get good enough land to go the Feudalism/poprush path. With France's great commerce, I decided to trade through the early times then become a research powerhouse. Now I'm just suffering through the long IBT's on a huge map as the techs keep rolling in. It's gotten boring.
     
  12. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    In some ways, certainly, but it's almost an embarrassment of riches. We need about 10 workers and right NOW!!! I'm in my "dither mode" where I'm not sure what to do first (story of my life :p ).

    Warmongering is an even bigger challenge for me. Scout may recall my first ever AA attack in a solo game, coz I PM'd him with excitement...and I'd already been playing for almost a year. I guess I'm a late bloomer. :blush:
     
  13. Sashie VII

    Sashie VII Balance of Power

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    lurker's comment: That's the purpose of the TDG, no? And with the team you've assembled, what could go wrong? :D
     
  14. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    Re: reducing size of screenies in MS Paint...

    I just tried this, and it works a treat!!! :goodjob: Thank you. It's something I've been struggling with for a very long time.
     
  15. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    Correct on all counts, Tone! There are a lot of things I never learned or have forgotten, so I welcome corrections for any howler, just ask DocT who has corrected more of my gaffes than anyone.

    Much is going to depend on when the worker started the mining project but in all cases it is better to work the high food, high gold fields unless it is a matter on only one or two turns to match granary to growth.

    Nonetheless I think you are well on the way to getting the first settler down before t25, Just be careful about growth to pop7 as that will throw things seriously out of phase.

    And a little note on exploring - I like that you kept the warrior moving in cardinal directions, but since we are an AGRI nation, my inclination would have been to follow the river with all the grass easterly from the incense with detours to climb a mountain.
     
  16. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    We posted at almost exactly the same time, and I just now spotted this. Welcome to the waiting list, downhill, and feel free to comment/ask questions. :)

    Thanks, Bede, I'll carry on now.

    I remembered the cardinal directions part. Wish I'd thought of the other, but I always thought one of the objectives was to locate another civ, and southerly seemed more likely.
     
  17. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    I keep looking at those maps and all I can think is:

    Cows and incense and BGs, OH MY!

    We're off to a great start, gang!
     
  18. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    Honored lurker's comment:
    Perhaps you should build a worker after the granary finishes and connect the Incense.
    @downhill: You certainly got a grasp of the game better than I did on my first few games :)shake:). For a while, I didn't even know about the science slider! :lol:
     
  19. gmaharriet

    gmaharriet Ancient Crone

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    Turnlog continued:

    12 - 3450bc - Lux to 10% for new citizen. Warrior East. Citizen placed on riverside unroaded BG.

    13 - 3400bc - Warrior climbs mountain N/E and sees more BGs and grassland. I'll be heading him back northerly to check out unexplored territory closer to home.

    14 - 3350bc - Warrior north

    15 - 3300bc - Warrior north sees more mountains and continuation of yet another river. Warrior Code in 3, but Sci slider cannot be lowered without increasing research time.

    16 - 3250bc - Warrior north sees more hills, mountains, and the edges of what appears to be tundra. Worker completes mine and moves N/E to riverside BG tile. Warrior Code in 2, but still can't lower Sci slider. Growth due next turn in Entremont, so will anticipate needing higher lux slider then.

    17 - 3200bc - Worker begins mining BG. Warrior north to mountain sees more mountains and 1 tundra. Warrior Code in 1 at 70%, lux raised to 20% due to growth. New citizen placed on riverside BG.

    IBT - Warrior Code comes in. Set to Mysticism in 18 at 80%, 11gp in the treasury, gpt at zero.

    18 - 3150bc - Warrior west sees lots more tunra, but also more grass (1 with BG, 1 forest). Entremont growth in 4, granary in 5.

    19 - 3100bc - Warrior S/W to hill sees wheat, another BG and more forest.

    20 - 3050bc - Warrior west. Notice that Entremont is due to grow in 2 with the granary in 3. Since I'm almost positive we want the granary the turn BEFORE growth, I move a citizen to the riverside forest to get the granary in 2 and growth in 3.

    NOT 21, but 20. F6 said my turn 20 was turn 19. Is 4000bc turn zero? Anyway, I know it's supposed to be 3000bc at turn 20, so I'll play another to keep things on track. *sigh*

    Warrior S/W sees more forest and yet another BG...not much plain grass in this game.

    End of Turnset Notes:

    The treasury is still at 11gp and 0gpt. Myst in 15. Entremont will grow in 2, granary in 1. Entremont is currently producing 7spt.

    We haven't met anyone at all yet. This doesn't appear to be an island, but where is everyone? I changed direction of exploration so we could check out the local lux hill and not send our first settler into uncharted territory.

    A couple of possibilities for locating other civs would be to raise lux and send our MP directly south, as he's closer to the area, and move the currently exploring warrior to Entremont for MP duty. Another would be to postpone a settler and build another warrior. Last possibility would be to hope someone finds us...I'm amazed they haven't already. Sorry I headed in the wrong direction, and I hope it wasn't a mistake to circle back. Well, that's why I'm here...to learn from my mistakes.

    Question for Tone...I got the smaller pic, but now have tons of white space in the pic. Do you have a handy solution for that?

    Our empire:
    Spoiler :


    And the save:
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Bede

    Bede Deity

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    And the first dotmap



    @gma - 4000BC is turn 0 and 3000BC is turn 20. Look at the turn count in
    the CA2 alerts window if you have any doubt.
     

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