Gma02: “First Come, First Severed” - Training Day Game

[downhill]

I have a few questions;

Dot Maps
Is there anywhere I can find a brief explanation of how to create/interpret them? I can do screenshots with paint etc.

I believe there is a dotmapping tool in CA2, but I'm not certain because I've never played a succession game before and my dotmaps are always done by hand.

Scouting
There was some mention of 'cardinal' direction what does that refer to. My usual approach is to always try and move to reveal the most tiles and head for mountains/hills.

From the Latin cardo, cardinis [hinge], the cardinal directions are the four principal directions -- North, East, South, and West. Why TGOM prefers exploring in cardinal directions as opposed to ordinal directions, I don't quite know. Perhaps the mechanics of movement and tile visibility allow more tiles to be uncovered in the same time when moving cardinally. Oh Grumpy One???

the GH to our south
Is there a reason we haven't triggered it yet? I tend to make these prime targets.

As long as we pop it while there is still one ancient age tech that we have not researched and are not researching, the hut has the same chance of giving us a tech. So there is no hurry on that front.

However, if we pop it by cultural expansion, it won't give a barb (except in limited circumstances¹). I don't know whether the game replaces the barb outcome with something good or just with an empty hut. At best, popping by expansion increases our likelihood of a goody. At worst, it decreases our chance of being harassed by hairy Jutes or Saxons.

¹I think that one can get a barb from a hut popped by cultural expansion when the hut is closer to another existing center city square than it is to the center city square of the city that expands to pop it, but I could be wrong. Oh Grumpy One???

What chance is the AI likely to start an Early War?
IOW do we need to think about garrisons for our new cities as soon as we make contact with another civ?

Tribute, tribute, tribute. I say play meek and mild while we're allowed to do so. Let them use our money to build and research things we'll later take from them by force. Until then, let's focus resources on growth and learning.

N.B.: You'll soon realise that I'm opinionated. I'm also often wrong. Please do correct me when I'm being dunderheaded!

 

[greygamer]

I trust you really meant 1NE or 1NW of the X, rather than 1N. 1N puts the city center on a bonus grass and since we have lots of other equally good spots that would not be the strongest move, though you will regain that lost shield once the town grows to 7 and the nation is no longer ruled by a despot.

I didn't notice those were bonuses, it's early here (I'm on GMT) and there seemed way too many dots for those to be bonus shields. So looking at it again 1 NW or NE looks good. Don't worry I'll be more awake when I take my stint

 

[Tone]

lurker's comment:

@Bede: I'm 99.99% unconvinced that 1NE from the crosshairs will lose you the incense for 30+ turns. I believe that this position would place the incence tile with a border from the capitol and a border from the new town... creating a border around the incense tile.

I agree on this. The crosshairs and any of the variations suggested (NE, NW and even N) would allow you to claim the lux straight away. I would be wary of the move NE though as it moves your new city even further away from your capital, thus increasing the potential for corruption and waste. Personally I don't like to build my second city that far away from the capital, so I would stick with the cross hairs or move it one tile NW. Also it creates a 'hole' in between the two cities where those two bg river tiles are. To claim those you would have to build a city somewhere like the plains tile W of the GH. Not a problem IMO but it is going to affect your future city placement in an area that is clouded in fog at the moment.

 

[downhill]

lurker's comment: I crossposted earlier with both Bede and Scoutsout in response to Greygamer, so here are some more thoughts...

@Bede/Greygamer: While I agree we wouldn't want to leave any cities entirely ungarrisoned (for barb and happiness reasons), I still wouldn't worry excessively about early war with the AIs. Tying up excessive shields in large garrisons will defeat the purpose of delaying our iron-finding efforts, namely to focus on growth and infrastructure development. If it were me, I'd much rather pump out settlers and workers than extra military in the early days. They'll be much more valuable than any tribute we may need to pay.

@Bede/Tone: Speaking of the delay in seeking iron, I think one of the principal reasons to delay is not just to avoid the distractions of early war, but to avoid being required by the variant to tie up 200 shields in building five (great but) expensive units too early. That's almost like building a wonder early (except that the ROI is probably higher on units that can go take something from the AI!). In terms of the warrior/GS gambit, I think in similar terms. Upgrading five warriors to GS will cost 450 gp. In the ancient age, that's a whole lotta beakers being poured out.

I'd probably be inclined to ignore the gambit, leave warriors at home for barb garrison, and build the GS from scratch after we've donned our crowns and gotten a productive core of cities running. With the spacing in our core, we'll probably want to keep each city at least minimally garrisoned while our real fighters are in the field, especially as I wouldn't be surprised to see someone change ages and trigger an MBU during our first trip a-mongering.

@Choxorn/Bede: While I agree that whipping cheap temples with agri citizens that mate like bunnies is a good strategy, I don't think it's one citizen for a temple, as Choxorn suggested. Isn't it:

empty box = 3 citizens = (30 shield cost * doubling penalty)/20
< 10 in the box = 2 citizens = (>20 shield cost)/20
10 or more in the box = 1 citizen = (<=20 shield cost)/20?

In terms of the whipping unhappiness, I think about it this way. If I had not built the temple, I'd have one less smiley point. If I whip it with one citizen, I've got +1 smiley point from the temple forever and -1 from the whip for 20 turns. Clearly pays off in happiness terms, as at the margin after 20 turns it could allow us to lower the slider or send an extra MP exploring.

If the town will regrow quickly AND get access to a more valuable tile (particularly a food bonus), it can pay off in economic/production terms. In the case of the crosshairs town, it will pay off because we get to the wheat and will grow faster than without access to the wheat. But if there is no food bonus to be reached by cultural expansion, we will always be one pop point behind until we hit a natural growth cap. That is where I become leery of whipping temples indiscriminately; each temple is equal to a lost worker (10 shields in the box plus 1 pop).

 

[Bede]

a quant in the house. And it's a good thing. As it is needed to restrain the wilder flights of fancy. @downhill - do you keep your HP 12C by the monitor? And have you programmed it with Conquests math yet?

And you are almost when it comes to huts popped by culture. IIRC if the hut is between an existing border and the new town center it can, and most likely will, give barbarians. If it on the far side (the far side?) then it will not.

And I just plain avoid popping them unless I have no military, or I have troops ready to deal with yokels.

 

[greygamer]

I've got the Save and looking at the roster guess I'm up next, (can we give the next player a nudge in future) I'll attempt to start my stint this evening (20:00 to 22:30 GMT) I have looong work days! I'm going to halt for advice if anything dramatic happens. But wonder what the conscensus about our next build is settler/worker...I'd guess settler in order to get the much discussed new city underway.
I'll push the 'scout' west. Hopefully (s)he will find something useful.

 

[choxorn]

Honored lurker's comment: I still have yet to figure out how the whipping thing works, and that still doesn't make sense to me. Is there an article in the War Academy on it?

 

[gmaharriet]

Wow! I go to sleep and wake up to information/questions almost more than I can assimilate.

First things first...an officially updated Roster:

Current Roster:
Greygamer - up and "got it"
Bede - on deck
Desertsnow
Aabraxan
Kickbooti
Gmaharriet - just played

Waiting List:
Downhill

@Choxorn - Would you mind becoming our official "Clerk of the Roster"? You did a great job in Aabra01 and I'd be honored if you'd perform that valuable service for us.

@Downhill - I'm pleased to see you fully participating in the discussions.

 

[gmaharriet]

I'll attempt to address the several items brought up and, as yet, still hanging.

I think what was actually meant was that once we've met those conditions, we must declare war. Gmaharriet, can you clarify that?

Um, I'll try. My intention was, if we have iron and 5 Gallics, we declare. If we have no iron, we continue to "prepare", since warfare with archers/cats might need to wait just long enough to assemble our armed forces. A war with 5 archers and 1 cat (if that's all we had) seems risky. Clear as mud?

Once we make our first declaration, there is no turning back for being at war with someone until the game's end, so we want to make sure the first war will succeed. I'll assume the better warmongers here will know better than I at what point that is.

There's been some discussion of deferring research of Iron Working until we know Monarchy. I have little experience with beelining to Monarchy, but it seems we'd be able to trade for Iron Working by then, if only trading Monarchy itself. Knowing we have iron doesn't trigger war (still need Gallics), but knowing we do NOT have it does push us toward war. So, as already mentioned, Math and Iron Working, as well as their prerequisites, certainly become trade priorities.

@Greygamer - I only have one thing to add to the discussion of making dot maps (at which I am truly abysmal), and that is how to make the dots. You can use the spray paint can in MS Paint (mine never come out round, but nevermind), or you can draw an "x". You can also draw lines to show the border squares, either the initial 9-square area or the fat expanded square.

As downhill mentioned, there is a dot mapping tool in CivAssistII, though it's not exactly "dots" produced, but proposed new towns in a variety of colors and showing the entire fat square area. You can do "what iffing" this way, but I find it far harder to see the underlying terrain using this, so my personal preference is just dots or squares.

There's been some discussion of popping goody huts. I'm not expert, but the one thing I'm absolutely sure of is they produce no barbs if you settle precisely adjacently to them. Thus my earlier suggestion of placing a new town either directly east or N/E of the huts near our capital. I also think that would be a reasonable distance from the town proposed near the incense hill.

a quant in the house. And it's a good thing. As it is needed to restrain the wilder flights of fancy. @downhill - do you keep your HP 12C by the monitor?

Interpretation please? What is a quant? what is an HP 12C? Sounds like it must have something to do with calculations, but please confirm.

@choxorn - Seems like Tone wrote something recently about whipping in either General Discussions or the Strategy Form. Some great stuff there!

 

[Bede]

@greygamer - park the exploring warrior on a mountain near the spot marked X until the settler gets there. That will light up the whole area and prevent a barb from spawning just as the settler sets out on her trek.

On local worker turns I think the capitol area has its full complement of food and shields to perform its function once the cow gets watered so the worker can go east and connect the incense. But please make sure you are getting +5 food and at least 6 shields at pop4 before doing anything else. And please don't do a Tubby and mine the cow! in reference to another esteemed student of the game.

I envision the next town to be our troop depot for the foreseable future so its first project should be a barracks, helped along by a forest chop, though maybe a temple should be whipped in first also helped along by tree cutting. Keep at least one riverside forest for the druids though, as with the AGRI trait that's like a free mined bonus grass field.

And here is a peek at what I think should be the third city location given what we know now.

 

[Bede]

Interpretation please? What is a quant? what is an HP 12C? Sounds like it must have something to do with calculations, but please confirm.

"quant" as in "quantifier" - one who views the world through numbers.

And the HP12C is a relic of the eighties, pre-Excel. It was among the first, if not the first, programmable handheld calculators and designed to run financial functions. Quants on Wall Street used to carry them in holsters on their belts. They do nifty things like Yield to Maturity and Internal Rate of Return, and Discounted Cash Flow. I still have mine and pull it out on occasion just to remind myself of Reverse Polish Notation and all the fun I used to have baffling people with bull when I couldn't dazzle them with brilliance.

 

[Bede]

Well, here it comes the dreaded "triple post".

Spent a productive hour with the save and the trusty HP12C and Made a discovery of great importance.

Our second town with a temple and granary will become a 2 turn worker farm.



There will be enough food and enough shields after waste to get +5 food and +5 shields.

So temple first (assign the citizens to +2f+1g fields) and when the pop is at 2whip the temple, and follow up immediately with a forest chop for the granary. Skip the barracks for now. There are at least two more city locations that will get to net 4 and after some growth net 8 shields for churning out our military requirement.

we are off to the races!

What a set up.

The next set of numbers we need to look for is +4 and +8 as those are the magic 5 turn numbers for catapaults/archers/spears and Gallic Swords when the time comes.

 

[Sashie VII]

lurker's comment: First city gets to become a 4T settler factory, now second city a 2T worker factory! Wonderful to know that the Map Generator can be nice

And with the team you've assembled, what could go wrong?

And plus the setup on hand, really, what could?

 

[gmaharriet]

lurker's comment: And plus the setup on hand, really, what could?

About the only thing I can imagine is both no iron and no opponents on the entire continent. I actually had a Russian WarLord game a couple of years ago with 3 large continents, and I had TWO continents all to myself. I was 100% builder then and thought that was wonderful, until I realized that all of the Modern Age resources were on the 3rd continent with the other civs, and I had no idea of how to invade them.

 

[Desertsnow]

I'm here, I've just had nothing to contribute so far. Emperor level is a bit above my level of expertise, usually.
Anyway my 2&#162; worth.
As much as I like going for philosophy I agree that any slingshot gambit is a longshot with so many rivals starting with Alphabet. I wouldn't mind whipping a temple in our third city (or whichever is the first that is not a settler- or worker-factory) for one citizen.
Visiting the goodyhut is a nobrainer.
May I also suggest exploring the coast?

 

[gmaharriet]

Emperor level is a bit above my level of expertise, usually.

Glad to see you posting, Desertsnow! This game is designed for players who are NOT up to Emperor yet. We're ALL tryin' to get there. I think you're in good company.

Visiting the goodyhut is a nobrainer.

Yep, but not with warriors. I recall Bede mentioning (in another game) about Imperial barbs at this level...humans with warriors lose their advantage in combat. I find even an archer risky.

May I also suggest exploring the coast?

Good idea! We really need more exploring units...the sooner the better.

 

[greygamer]

Turn 25 2750BC
A quick update in the middle of my turn set in case there is something urgent I've missed.

21 our warrior scout moves south to reveal a hill,bg and forest prior to climbing the mountain. The granary is completed and production started on the settler. Entremont will grow next turn as planned and we have to raise the lux slider to 30% to avoid any riots. Science is reduced to 60% to keep our 10 gold reserve.

22 the worker starts roading the tile just mined it will take 3 turns then another 4 to irrigate the cattle by which time our settler should be about ready to found the second town. War moves to the mountain as suggested. The settler will be built in 3 turns and Entremont will grow again in 4

23 I hop the warrior to the mountain south of where he was.

24 I move the warrior again but the all remains clear of threats

25 we have our settler and production is changed to another warrior, do we want another one? He can act as MP. the new settler moves NE and E. The worker starts irrigating the cattle. I move the warrior in Entremont to the nearby mountain to reveal more land to our NE, we can have a replacement warrior in two turns or he can move back in two turns. I'd like to explore to the north though. I moved our patroling warrior towards the settler though I wasn't sure if this is the best move. Science and Luxuries stay unchanged as Entremont will grow next turn. Mysticism is 14 turns away now.


I'd appreciate thoughts on what we should do next especially with regard to builds for Entremont and our exploring warriors. The new town will be founded in the next three turns.

 

[scoutsout]

And the HP12C is a relic of the eighties, pre-Excel. It was ... designed to run financial functions. ... I still have mine...

I happen to have a pair of HP12Cs. Darn things are built like little electronic bricks...and only need fresh batteries every 15 years or so. I don't know why I thought I'd need a spare.

<digression>
But just so you know, that calculator is still in production even though HP has tried time and time again to replace it with "better" models over the years... the latest being the HP12C "Platinum" calculator... no better than the standard 12C. IMO, it's a nice balance of form and function... and it does a better job of calculating IRR than MS Excel. (Excel makes you supply a "guess"... no kidding.)

The ones in the series that went out in the '80s were the scientific and mathematical cousins to the 12C. The 11C was a scientific calculator (and I may yet buy one off ebay). The 14C was a programmer's calculator that would do bin and hex calculations...and the 15C would do matrix problems.
</digression>

...but anyway, nice job of spotting the worker pump there Bede.

 

[Bede]

Quoth greygamer: "22 the worker starts roading the tile just mined it will take 3 turns then another 4 to irrigate the cattle by which time our settler should be about ready to found the second town. War moves to the mountain as suggested. The settler will be built in 3 turns and Entremont will grow again in 4"

before you proceed let me spend a little time on a settler farm tutorial. The important thing is that population never falls below 4 or grow to more than 6. In the early stages it takes a lot of fiddling to get everything in phase and the outrageous growth rate of a Celtic city on a river with cows makes it rather interesting.

I'll try to come back at you with some pictures with circles and arrows and a little paragraph 'splaining each one.

@scout - I still have the 12C I bought in 1983 I think it was to do YTM calculations when I was playing retail bond salesman. I'm not even sure I ever replaced the batteries and it still runs today, though the glass on the display is pretty spotty.

 

[gmaharriet]

The important thing is that population never falls below 4 or grow to more than 6. In the early stages it takes a lot of fiddling to get everything in phase and the outrageous growth rate of a Celtic city on a river with cows makes it rather interesting.

Yup! At one point in my learning, I must have played about 20 games, just getting a settler factory up and running smoothly, then abandoning the game to do the same thing all over again with various civs and situations. Nice thing is, it's like riding a bicycle...you don't forget how once you've got the hang of it. Well worth learning!!!