God/Higher Power TBD v. Atheists: The Origins of the Universe!

[The Yankee]

Holy crap! I've gone to the dark side! I'm actually starting one of these threads! Somebody save me!

Anyway, I do have to extend the whole debate about whether God (or any higher power) created the world or whether the world came into being through the theories on the origin of the universe, clouds of materials coalesced and formed the solar system, etc., etc., etc.

This all came about during a talk with my girlfriend at 1 AM yesterday because these are the things that pop into our minds late at night and through tangents upon tangents, we ended up talking about the origins of the world. Since she's more faithful than I am, I listened to what she said about it and I offered up my rather passive theory which I'll ask all of you:

Even if we accept scientific proof that the world formed one way, the solar system formed that way, the galaxy came around that way, even all the way to the beginnings of the universe....where the heck did it all come from?

Take the Big Bang Theory, for example. It says that the universe came about from a tiny speck in the middle of nothing that blew and expanded (that's about the Cliffs Notes of it). Fine. So where in the hell did that come from?

Maybe one day we'll prove that. So how did that come into existence? So on and so on.

Even if you buy the theory that there was a previous universe that contracted and that led up to the current Bang and this universe, where does it come from? That this is just the way things are and the way they've always been and the way they'll always be seem to be a leap of...faith, does it not? Since anyone stating that there is or might not be a God, how do you explain this? Where have we come from? Where did all of this come from without any kind of higher power?

So do kindly tell me why the hell I'm wrong here!

Thanks!

 

[El_Machinae]

Quite simply, it comes from the same place God comes from ... but is simpler.

We don't know the history of the Universe before/beyond the Big Bang (depending on how you see it). I lean towards the idea that the Universe has always existed and that our visible universe is a local phenomenon.

What "caused" the Universe? Dunno! I'm just a person with a 3lb brain drawing upon the best thinking of a few hundred thousand people. I don't think it needs a cause, though

 

[LucyDuke]

Where did all of this come from without any kind of higher power?

Where did the higher power come from?

See, it never ends.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well there was no "before" the big bang since that was how space and time came into being.

 

[The Yankee]

Where did the higher power come from?

See, it never ends.

Well, if you're a believer, that doesn't matter so much, as that power has always been there. Yet, that just leaves another thing to explain....and it still had to come from something.

Something from nothing sounds like a huge stretch.

 

[admiral-bell]

Something from nothing sounds like a huge stretch.

No, not really. It has been calculated that the net energy of the universe is 0. The universe may actually be free lunch, and therefore could spontaneously arise.

 

[The Yankee]

No, not really. It has been calculated that the net energy of the universe is 0. The universe may actually be free lunch, and therefore could spontaneously arise.

That sounds like a hell of a deal. Too good of a deal, really. And we're still left with the questions of why, how, where the heck does this spontaneous matter and energy spawn from anyway?

See what I mean? We could explain everything we come across and open up the same old questions and find new things to explore and explain.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I was under the impression that subatomic particles spontaneously appear and disappear all the time but I'm having trouble finding any links. I'm not a physicist though.

 

[Atlas14]

That sounds like a hell of a deal. Too good of a deal, really. And we're still left with the questions of why, how, where the heck does this spontaneous matter and energy spawn from anyway?

See what I mean? We could explain everything we come across and open up the same old questions and find new things to explore and explain.

Exactly. It just doesn't add up.

Even if you try to think of it in terms of quantum-theory crap or whatever, it still doesn't add up (at least not in my mind).

 

[warpus]

That sounds like a hell of a deal. Too good of a deal, really. And we're still left with the questions of why, how, where the heck does this spontaneous matter and energy spawn from anyway?

See what I mean? We could explain everything we come across and open up the same old questions and find new things to explore and explain.

Quantum fluctuations, possibly.

Also, we don't really know that the Universe ever began - perhaps it never did.

And perhaps, time, as well as space, was created in the big bang.. If that's true, the question of "What happened before the big bang" goes away.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Exactly. It just doesn't add up.

Even if you try to think of it in terms of quantum-theory crap or whatever, it still doesn't add up (at least not in my mind).

Best turn off your computer then, which works precisely because of quantum-theory crap.

 

[Atlas14]

I was under the impression that subatomic particles spontaneously appear and disappear all the time but I'm having trouble finding any links. I'm not a physicist though.

I'm not chemist, but from what I do know of chemistryI don't remember ever hearing that. Subatomic particles are matter, meaing they have mass. We never really know the exact position of electrons because they behave as both waves and particles, but I don't think they spontaneously generate.

 

[Atlas14]

Best turn off your computer then, which works precisely because of quantum-theory crap.

I'm not saying quantum-theory crap is actually crap, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to answer the question Yankee and many others are pondering.

 

[warpus]

I'm not saying quantum-theory crap is actually crap, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to answer the question Yankee and many others are pondering.

Nobody has been able to answer that question yet.

And ParadigmShifter is right about particles popping in and out of existence.

 

[The Yankee]

Best turn off your computer then, which works precisely because of quantum-theory crap.

Fine, we manipulated that to come up with some useful products and ideas and we may do tons more wonderful things with it in the future.

Yet, it never answers why.

Doesn't it seem odd that things will just appear and disappear just like that? Wouldn't there have to be an explanation for it beyond any offered now or even any we could find in the future?

 

[Atlas14]

Nobody has been able to answer that question yet.

And ParadigmShifter is right about particles popping in and out of existence.

In and out of existance, or simply appearing to because we do not have an appropriate reference point to be able to observe their exact positions or movement?

Edit: Perf probably knows a heck more than most of us, specially me on this subject.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, we could learn more later ... but they seem to just come in and out of existence.

Wouldn't there have to be an explanation for it beyond any offered now or even any we could find in the future?

We might have more answers latter. Our track records on using science to answer those questions has far outstripped all the religious texts combined.

The Scriptures answer these questions even less usefully or reliably

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well I can't find any links (too much stuff about religion when searching for spontaneous matter creation) but I'm sure some particle physicists will show up soon.

 

[The Yankee]

The Scriptures answer these questions even less usefully or reliably

It doesn't necessarily have to be anything we currently call God or gods, but something, regardless of how much or how little it would confirm Scripture or anything else we have. That's why I have "Higher Power To Be Determined" in the title.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

If we nail this one on CFC I think we will all be in line for the Nobel Prize, so fingers crossed then.