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God I hate loyalty. Worst mechanic EVER.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Sherlock, Feb 22, 2019.

  1. Sherlock

    Sherlock Just one more turn...

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    Rebellion in three turns. Rebellion in three turns. Rebellion in three turns. YES, I have put a governor there. Yes, I have a military unit there. Yes, I converted it to my religion (not that I think that helps, but IT SHOULD).

    They setup this mechanic that makes it insanely hard to play your game and give you no tools for dealing with it.

    I've flipped this freaking city FOUR TIMES, maybe more. The game forces you to TAKE VERY SINGLE ENEMY CITY IN A ROW ONCE RIGHT AFTER THE OTHER or whatever city you take will NEVER STOP FLIPPING.

    I tried building a city nearby hoping that would bump up the loyalty, no help at all. I'm in a golden age, NO HELP AT ALL. NOTHING. FREAKING. HELPS.

    If there was a MOD to just rip this crap from the game I'd be all over it in a New York minute.
     
  2. Steamboat Willem

    Steamboat Willem Chieftain

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    There is such a mod, it's called "Settler difficulty".
     
  3. SxSnts9

    SxSnts9 Chieftain

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    Don't conquer cities you won't be able to keep. If you must have a plan to make sure they won't flip from loyalty. This really isn't that hard. Just takes practice getting to know what you'll need to do for each situation. You'll get there.
     
    AntoineS, Gorbles, Julia97 and 8 others like this.
  4. Haggbart

    Haggbart Chieftain

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    There are several mechanics in place that helps you deal with this, in random order; being in a golden age instead of a dark age (or even normal), different policy cards, monuments, religion you founded (yes it does help) , governors, razing the city, garrisoned military units, capturing nearby enemy cities, building government plaza and certain wonders (like SoL), and of course increasing ammenities.

    This is not really an issue in the game, conquest is easy enough.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
    Delvi, Kjimmet, Tech Osen and 2 others like this.
  5. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    Since it's opinion thread, I love the loyalty mechanic and I would even want it to be more complex. Cities changing hands in war should never be easy. The system is a bit ham-fisted, as many in Civ VI, though. A pity there's no nationality.
     
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  6. Sherlock

    Sherlock Just one more turn...

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    Nobody likes a smart ass.
     
  7. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    You need to settle as close as you can to them and grow said cities. Try to target cities that have an entertaminment complex to run Bread and Circuses. Chop jungle/gather food to grow cities faster and exert pressure. Attack with more units. You want to take down cities in one fell swoop.

    Or just pillage/raze them. Perfectly viable in GS since pillage gives too much yield. Probably better than the city itself.
     
  8. SirWill90

    SirWill90 Chieftain

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    It is annoying but if you look at history it is not far from how conquest has played (or fizzled) out.

    I usually play on Prince or King, and in my opinion the surest way to deal with it is to raze the ones you don’t have a real need for while putting Amani with the right promotions near the ones you want to keep, adopting the garrison/loyalty policy, and then taking the capital asap. Then again, once I go to war I am pretty much a total war type player.

    As others have said there are several ways to deal with this. Looking over the policies and governors’ abilities is a good start to coming up with your solution.
     
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  9. Steamboat Willem

    Steamboat Willem Chieftain

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    Nobody likes whiners either.
     
  10. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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  11. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Loyalty is one of the best new ideas they came up with. What was sickening pre-loyalty was the chaotic settling where the AI, with all its bonuses, would cross your entire land to plant a stupid city in your backyard. No more. Of course, you have to adapt to the new conditions, and cannot do the same or similar. A little more planning, that's all.
     
  12. GenyaArikado

    GenyaArikado Judge of Love

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    Play as Eleanor and you'll see the flipside
     
  13. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    Agreed. I'm currently watching my partner play Civ VI vanilla and can't imagine going back to the time of annoying AI cities cropping up like weeds in that one gap you left. I'd go so far as to say it's the single best mechanic they've added across both expansions.

    I won't say I never have problems with loyalty but generally it's because I conquered too fast, tried to keep a city I should have razed, or forgot the right social policy cards. It does make for slower expansion than pre-R&F days but it feels more realistic to me. OP, have you tried having Amani with the loyalty promotion in the city or nearby? That can help.
     
  14. Krajzen

    Krajzen Warlord

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    With all respect to loyalty system, this argument baffles me the most. So that's it, that's the ultimate purpose of the entire complicated Loyalty system of civic revolts representing internal instability, to slap some fix on stupid AI bordergore? Wouldn't it be easier to program AI to settle cities close to each other (unless exception x), or introduce far simpler and more direct mechanic of "you need to settle in x furthest range from your borders (unless sea colony)"?

    Loyalty system does indees fix that problem, but for me it does it in the most convoluted and most ahistorical way possible.
    In human history civs indeed settled civs next to each other instead of "forward settling", because of obvious logistics (and the fact that the world wasn't free to traverse and settle wherever you want, like in civ).
    But they didn't do that "because of the risk of spontaneous peaceful revolt of their colonies to whoever had the highest population nearby".

    My biggest problem with civ6 loyalty system as a (crazy) solution to forward settling & bordergore is the fact how it makes overseas colonies essentially impossible, directly colliding with world history.

    Seriously, in civ6 rise and fall you cannot be Portuguese and control cities all over Indian Ocean coast. You cannot be Dutch gradually taking over Indonesia. You cannot be East India Company. You cannot be Vikings and create settlements all over Europe, or settle cities deep down Rus. You cannot be Greeks colonizing the entire Mediterranean, or Cholas conquering Malay ports. You can't do those things because of ahistorical loyalty system which would make all such lonely outposts instantly collapse to magical ahistorical force of population magnetism.

    My another problem with Loyalty system is shared with ridiculous civ4 culture border wars, thank God at least this absurdity is gone. And what I mean is: the idea that the entire provinces (cultural borders of civ4) or cities (civ6) could casually peacefully change hands by civic rebellion, without violent supression by military force or diplomatic ****storm. If Roman city on Persian border was in risk of "flipling" to Persian side then Roman military would immediately remind it why that's suicidal idea. And even if Roman area did succesfully flipped to Persian control (you could maybe simplify Armenian mess with such comparisions) then it could, and was a cause of enormous diplomatic, international mess, usually ending bloody.

    But in civ6? Oh yes, I am medieval military empire that mutilates people daily as a regular criminal punishment, yet I simply can't force my own city to submission, I can only watch how its loyalty meter falls and it peacefully casually takes somebody elses banner and kicks out my officials and tax collectors. Yeah, it's not like I would crush such revolt with my army and slaughter those traitors at the slightest sign of betrayal.

    Who controls the area in human history is decided by applied force. It doesn't matter if my city is surrounded by much bigger civs territory if I have military power to beat any aspiring "loyalty flipper" among my citizens to a bloody pulp. Succesful revolts do happen, but "loyalty flipping" is simply nonsensical arcadey mechanic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  15. Veriaqa

    Veriaqa Chieftain

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    I don't agree with "the worst mechanic ever", on contrary I think it's a very realistic and good mechanic. But I have the same experience as you too and I don't know how to handle it properly. I just a normal gamer, I don't calculate most of my action in the game (i.e. district's placement for the optimal bonus etc). So my solution for a conquered city that rebelled is one: razed it to the ground! Burn! Burn baby burn! <insert evil maniacal hysterical laugh/>
     
  16. MooFreaky

    MooFreaky Meatbag Destroyer

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    I disagree. You absolutely can, but you have to be careful where you place them.
    The colonials didn't just found cities right next to the locals and then all was fine and dandy. They generally went around absolutely belting the locals, destroying their nearby population centres (or taking control of them), which then allowed them to grow in peace. Overseas colonies were hotbeds for rebellions, unrest and insurrections. It often took massive military investment to make them succeed.
    So the absolutely could make changes that every unit within moving distance of a city improves its loyalty by 1, but make captured cities immune to this until they are ceded.

    However, there needs to be consideration to gameplay over historicity. If you allow too many loyalty boosters then it is exploitable.

    There were repeated flips from Rome to Persia, and visa versa. The most prominent were puppet states, but even then cities on the border were well known for changing sides. And it absolutely led to declerations of war, but not always. There were many times one or the other were too pre-occupied elsewhere to actually do anything about it.
    All we need is a Cassius Belli for "give me my goddamn city back, scumbag!" and it's pretty accurate.

    Rome is basically the poster boy for cities flipping to and from an Empire. It happened constantly throughout their history. War was generally the result, but that's exactly how I'd respond in game if my cities were being taken over via influence so it seems a good enough system.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  17. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

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    Well, the equivalent would be when it flips, pillage everything and raze the city then...

    I think the "free city" state accurate enough reflects this... you have at least 10 turns for your military to "remind" them. If you do not make it in time they join your opponent.

    Loyalty issues generally not a big deal UNLESS you have a ton of grievances against you. I believe what is new in GS is that negative grievances will indeed apply a loyalty malus to your conquered city. Being occupied itself has a -5 inherent penalty already. Basically you just waltzed in without a just cause for war and you expect the conquered people to simply accept you?
     
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  18. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Warlord

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    But you can be Spain, Zulu, Persia, Phoenicia, Ottoman or England and do those things. I have settled cities at -20 spots and held them through governors and civics.
     
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  19. ShunNakamura

    ShunNakamura Chieftain

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    I will jump on the oversea colonies bit. My latest Maori game ended up like that. My capital wasn't too bad, but the nearest city locations were crap. But just across a 4-6 tile straight between continents was a beautiful luscious heartland. I dump a city there and then Norway and Korea both dump a city nearby and drop my loyalty. I ended up joining Norway in a war vs Korea, but that turned out to be unneeded my golden age hit just in time that I didn't actually need to take Korea's 'shoved into my face' city. But yeah that game was a heck of a loyalty battle at the start. I actually have a harder time doing that in the late game since then the pressure from opposing civs is just too great to overcome with a bit of governor and policy tricks. Would be nice if there was a military card that gave +1 loyalty for military units in the cities domain or maybe make it +X% of combined military power in the city's influence meaning that injured units would grant less loyalty. Though that would also make it easier for the AI to block me from spy flipping them. I actually got pretty good at that in that game. Poor Korea. I spy flipped their 8 wonder capital. That was fun. Took a lot of work though. But doing that type of crap shouldn't be easy.

    That said I was much in the OP's boat in Rise and Fall. Was it made easier to keep cities loyal in Gathering Storm? Or is it just the early vs late game deal(most of my cursing the loyalty system was late game in Rise and Fall)?
     
  20. Warwolf22

    Warwolf22 Chieftain

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    Put some fast units on the border. Now nuke them all. Or use ships if your not that far. Keep them at 0 until all of tdm are. Dash in and take them. The cities will keep each other loyal.

    Nukes are better though
     

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