Going Clear: Scientology And The Prison Of Belief

[AcetyleneLamp]

Anyone else interested in this HBO documentary that airs tonight?

http://www.avclub.com/review/scientology-doc-going-clear-eviscerates-faithful-f-216896

 

[Terxpahseyton]

No, even if I had HBO. Because I am not very curious since I believe to know well enough about Scientology. It is a criminal organization. Never mind the faith itself, the church and its practices seem to be quit clearly designed to financially exploit its members by messing with their minds in a systematic and targeted manner and it appears to be standard practice to exert pressure with illegal and deeply unethical means on those which cause it any kind of trouble (including those wishing to depart from the church).

As I recall the only reason it eventually achieved the official status of a church in the US was because after years of battle the government just rolled over and gave up.
And it really is quit marvelous how overall tolerant and uninterested the state is towards it, not only in the USA. I have heard it suggested that this was because of a certain fear of Scientology, since it has already established its capability and willingness to punish those who challenge it. It really is like a state within the state. Making its own laws. But I suppose as said because of its threat to those opposing it but most of all because it will leave you also in general alone if you leave it alone, nothing happens. They are not like other criminal organizations as the Mafia who have an effect on all kinds of parts of society with their doings. No, they just concern themselves with their own little world of followers. That makes it easy to ignore.

 

[Wrymouth3]

Is anyone on CFC a level 9 thetan? I think that's what's required to enter the holiest site in Scientology... A cruise ship.

 

[JollyRoger]

Don't be silly . . . even a 1st level bear can take a cruise.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It's a cult that brainwashes people out of their money. Tom Cruise is nuts and jumps on furniture.

I don't get HBO, but I think I've got the gist of it.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

I've got this recorded on my DVR (or whatever they're calling it these days) but haven't watched it yet. I'm always interested in new ammunition to fuel my anti-scientology rants.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's a cult that brainwashes people out of their money. Tom Cruise is nuts and jumps on furniture.

I don't get HBO, but I think I've got the gist of it.

Tom Cruise gets paid a lot of money for jumping on furniture. That seems not terribly nuts.

As to cults and brainwashing...people believe stuff, usually with no particular washing required. Scientology is a good example of that, but I wouldn't say they are a cult. Cults, by and large, are marked by isolation from outside influence.

 

[LucyDuke]

Jumping on furniture is fun.

 

[classical_hero]

I love Katie Homes too.

 

[Hygro]

Scientology is a good example of that, but I wouldn't say they are a cult. Cults, by and large, are marked by isolation from outside influence.

They do isolate their members from outside influence.

 

[warpus]

I'm a level 17 super thetan uber wizard, I hop around my entire apartment from couch to table to futon and punch babies in the face along the way while I take their candy and money.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

They do isolate their members from outside influence.

Holy cow yes they do. It is an integral part of everything they do.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not in the traditional cult sense. Active scientologists may refuse outside influences, and are certainly encouraged to do so, but they aren't removed from exposure. They are out in the world earning their pay so they can buy higher access to Scientology, not secreted in some compound somewhere living off of Scientology.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

So to be a Cult you have to go Guantanamo bay on people?
Also, I think you severely underestimate the methods used by the "Chuch". They flat out brainwash people. This is not hearsay. They basically follow the official manual on how to brainwash people if there was such a thing. And once you hold such a power over a person, isolation is the easiest trick. And the church is hardly short of taks and requirements to control ever aspect of your life. And once they do, they will own you.

There have been and are copy organizations following the same basic rules to rub people off because it works so well. One instance is something mundane as a hair cutter course in the city of Dresden getting stupidly rich because they followed the rule book of Scientology. I kid you not.

Moreover, it has been well documented that if you try to leave the "fold", they may totally frack you up.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Tom Cruise gets paid a lot of money for jumping on furniture. That seems not terribly nuts.

As to cults and brainwashing...people believe stuff, usually with no particular washing required. Scientology is a good example of that, but I wouldn't say they are a cult. Cults, by and large, are marked by isolation from outside influence.

I don't know if Oprah pays her guests to appear on the show, but even if she does, I'm fairly sure that jumping on her couch wasn't in the contract.

Yes, Scientology is a cult.

Not in the traditional cult sense. Active scientologists may refuse outside influences, and are certainly encouraged to do so, but they aren't removed from exposure. They are out in the world earning their pay so they can buy higher access to Scientology, not secreted in some compound somewhere living off of Scientology.

There are more ways of isolating people than physically. All it takes is brainwashing people to not socialize with outsiders, refusing any more than absolutely necessary contact with outsiders, and making it plain that there will be terrible social, familial, and possibly financial consequences for leaving the group. For a lot of people, that's enough to keep them psychologically imprisoned within the cult, even if they're not physically isolated within a compound, neighborhood, or other small area.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think so. Cults use some degree of physical isolation, though not always going Git-mo about it.

I'm not surprised to hear 'this and that got rich with their playbook, because Scientology uses cutting edge marketing. If you want to call it brainwashing that's your prerogative, but I don't really believe in brainwashing myself.

They do use very effective marketing techniques to pitch some fairly common self awareness methods. They do this under the banner of 'a religion' so that they get the tax breaks. They use intimidation, mostly based in a superior legal department, to prevent two things:

1) Other sources of similar self awareness methods from competing with them. This is why they are so focused on keeping 'members' from going independent since there is really nothing to stop the initiated from selling on the methods at reduced prices otherwise.

2) Revelation that they are much heavier on marketing than substance since this perception overshadows what they have to offer by a substantial margin and makes it impossible to make sales.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There are more ways of isolating people than physically. All it takes is brainwashing people to not socialize with outsiders, refusing any more than absolutely necessary contact with outsiders, and making it plain that there will be terrible social, familial, and possibly financial consequences for leaving the group. For a lot of people, that's enough to keep them psychologically imprisoned within the cult, even if they're not physically isolated within a compound, neighborhood, or other small area.

The thing is, they specifically don't isolate them. Scientology members are out in the world selling. They aren't avoiding contact with outsiders. You might as well call the Kirby vacuum cleaner sales force a cult.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The thing is, they specifically don't isolate them. Scientology members are out in the world selling. They aren't avoiding contact with outsiders. You might as well call the Kirby vacuum cleaner sales force a cult.

The vacuum cleaner salespeople have the choice of leaving without fearing ostracism and other consequences from their co-workers and the company.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The vacuum cleaner salespeople have the choice of leaving without fearing ostracism and other consequences from their co-workers and the company.

Maybe. But whether they 'fear it' or not is only relevant when they want to leave. When they are satisfied that continuing membership in the sales force will continue to provide their livelihood there isn't any fear involved. And in every sales force I've ever been involved in there was a strong cliqueiness. It's a common effect of being in sales that the majority of your social life is fellow sales people, because 'outsiders' are all just customers.

Scientology is all about creating a sales force...with all that that entails. Yes, the member is going to become dependent on their fellow salespeople for most of their interaction, because that's what happens in a sales force. Yes the 'management' is always going to worry that their trained salespeople will jump ship and go to work for a rival. When the 'product' is intellectual property rather than physical goods you have the additional concern that they can jump ship and just go into business for themselves selling the exact same product.

That's the reasoning behind all the non disclosure agreements and shunning of former members. I wouldn't like it if I were targeted by their legal department, but it isn't like they are unique. I've been similarly dogged by car lots, water purifier companies, office equipment companies...practically everyone I ever worked for.

 

[Hygro]

Active scientologists may refuse outside influences, and are certainly encouraged to do so, but they aren't removed from exposure [...] secreted in some compound somewhere living off of Scientology.

Well, actually, yeah, that's something they do with a fair share of their members.