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Going for Gold: Annexation, Razing, and Puppeting

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jul 9, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jul 23, 2018.
  1. Yes

    78.6%
  2. No

    21.4%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

    This thread will debate the ways you can deal with a conquered city (Annexing it, Razing it, or Puppeting it).

    The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

    Important Notes:

    1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
    2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
    3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
    4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
     
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Personally for the first time in a long time I feel the balance of all 3 is in a good place. Puppets right now are almost free, but their bonuses are not so large that I feel its unbalanced. Consequently razing boosts your warscore enough that I have used it as a tactic to finish wars. So I find all 3 to be useful options.
     
    mikes61293, chicorbeef, Hinin and 2 others like this.
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    My bone to pick with the current system is that the city revolt system prioritizes puppets.

    If your cities are in revolt, puppets should not be the first on the chopping block; they already have the most autonomy, and generate the least :c5unhappy:. The cities that are the most unhappy should be the ones which revolt.

    City revolts, as currently implemented, maximize damage to your empire, while doing as little as possible to actually address unhappiness.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
    ElliotS likes this.
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Right. But what if the most unhappy city is the capital? Should you lose it?
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  6. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I vote no because I don't like the razing penalty staying until you settle/conquer another one. I see no point - it only hurts the AI, I can know when to get another one, they won't.
     
  7. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    The purpose of a revolt is not to relieve pressure -- it's to stress the existence of that pressure, and force you to do something about it. Out of context, puppeted cities make the most sense to revolt. In context, they're not unhappy , so it seems strange. But I see that as part of Gazebo's compromise solution re: CS, not as a reason for them not to revolt. I cerainly don't want to lose my biggest cities to revolt -- losing even one pretty much means the game's over.
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I disagree. While revolts are the real world don't follow game logic, this is a video game first and foremost, not an anthropology simulator. The revolt system is best if it acts as a negative feedback loop on unhappiness.
    This is my issue.
    Making exemptions for your core cities shouldn't be necessary in the first place, because your core cities shouldn't be the ones generating all your unhappiness. The cities which should be generating the most unhappiness should be peripheral cities which have grown beyond their means, have underdeveloped infrastructure, or marginal settling locations.

    This is an artifact of the latest patch, where high population determines unhappiness, rather than infrastructure. The revolt system and the happiness system are currently at odds with each other. If the happiness and revolt mechanics can be made more harmonious, then there wouldn't be as much of an issue.

    And no. I don't think that being a puppet necessarily means you should be slated to revolt more than a city with >5:c5unhappy:. Obviously, the citizens of that city are PISSED at you. Why would a puppet with 2:c5unhappy: revolt sooner than the people in any directly-controlled city with 3:c5unhappy:? The notion of national pride is a modern invention, and pretty alien to real empires. Your average joe in 1000 AD didn't really give a rat's ass who Emperor Txurce was, as long as the trains ran on time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
    black213 likes this.
  9. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    That's a very good paraphrase of what what's I said. ("The purpose of a revolt is not to relieve pressure -- it's to stress the existence of that pressure, and force you to do something about it.") "It" being the "negative feedback loop," which Gazebo is seemingly addressing. Right now, there's not much you can do about it.

    I don't recall a lot of the Roman cities on the Italian peninsula rebelling. Usually it was out in the hinterlands, where they had puppets.

    More to the point, I like the idea of puppets rebelling first, and you don't. That's that.
     
    black213 likes this.
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    If I had my choice, I would always always always always want my puppet to rebel before my annexed city. Losing a city to revolt is bad enough, but with the puppet it reduces the damage.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    It's not really so much that we disagree. I think it would be more accurate to say that we both have the same goal in mind, but disagree on how to reach it.

    I think that it makes more sense for people who are angry at God-emperor Blah-Blah to want to secede, and their secession would ensure the game mechanic puts you back into happiness as fast as possible.
    You think that the people least integrated into the empire should secede first, and since puppets can ONLY ever have negative happiness, that it makes sense to start with them.

    If puppets just happened to be the people that generated the most unhappiness, I think everyone would be happy.
     
  12. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    I hate that idea, because it could mean you lose your second biggest city which you had from early game. This is too much penalty and will fragment empire unnecessary. It's good that you lose puppet cities first, because they are least connected to your empire. Then you should lose cities in reverse order of founding/acquiring to keep integrity of empire.
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    The problem I see is that you lose a puppet that was not a happiness issue while keeping cities that are keeping the empire unhappy, so you'll probably revolt again before you can do anything about it.
    One thing is a punishment mechanic (revolt) and another is a trap. Traps should be avoided, imo, they are not fun.

    Edit. The Roman example makes me think that core cities usually have a harder time at rebelling because armies are close by. A rebellion usually implies some citizens taking arms and fighting against regular units. If the army beats the rebels, the most unhappy people in the city, this city should reduce its unhappiness or its population.
    So, if whenever a city revolts it loses 1 pop to create 2 rebels units, it will create two scenarios. When rebels still stand after 10 turns the city secedes, but with smaller population so it can be on its own easier. When rebellion is crushed, the city is kept but with less population, so once it is controlled unhappiness will be slightly better. Core cities are important, so players will make a bigger effort to keep them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  14. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    I would be really annoyed if I was conquering places while unhappy and one of my precious core cities randomly revolted. I can already imagine the complaints "Oh, I conquered some faraway place but my own cities are apparently pissed at my military success". There's a good chance I will still be in negative unhappiness after the revolt anyway. I would rather maintain my unhappy empire with periodic revolts where peripheral, irrelevant puppets revolted first rather than my core empire. They are of less priority to my empire so let them leave first, I want my own empire to hold on for as long as possible, I can handle periodic revolts.
     
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  15. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    I agree, and don't think there's anything to worry about here.
     
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  16. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    In that case when you have -20 happiness then for several turn nothing happens and then you lose one of your core cities which is huge. It's way more devastating than unhappiness that is generated by that city. Then after several turn you lose your next major city, which is also a big deal, but a little less than before. So punishment is less and less noticeable the more you are in revolt phase.

    In second scenario, when you lose puppet cities first and then in reverse order of founding/acquiring, punishments would gradually increase with every city. You also have more time to deal with happiness and you are not entirely screwed.

    From historic point of view, even if German people would revolt in Germany, they still would be German. However if Poles revolt in Germany then they are more likely to form it's own country.

    I like the second scenario much more from design, gameplay and historic point of view.
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Not randomly. It will revolt because its unhappiness is clearly saying so. If one of your core cities is very unhappy, you should not leave it unprotected.
    After the revolt, this city will lose some population, so you can handle happiness better, and you still have ten turns to deal with the rebels. Do you really want to venture your whole army seawards when things at home are far from ideal?
     
  18. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    Losing population and generating rebels are fine IMO, but I'd hate to lose entirely when it becomes a City State or goes to another civ.
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Remember that we are talking about a very special case: when your core cities are more unhappy than your satellite ones.

    This brings me this question. Which city should revolt faster, one with more unhappy people or one with more relative unhappy people? This is, a 10 pop city with 5 unhappiness (50%) or a 4 pop city with 4 unhappiness (100%)? Core cities have more unhappy population, but the relative unhappiness in the city is less than in most other cities. If the likeliness of a revolt is based on the relative unhappiness, then core cities have little to fear.
     
  20. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

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    Disagree for the most unhappy in absolute. I do want my 5 population 5 unhappiness to revolt before my 40 pop 10 happiness.
    So it would be the most unhappy in %.
    And then, why not, but it feel strange that puppet cities do not revolt. (note: I would also really like a feature to puppet an existing annexed city, but that's a modmod stuff)

    I'm still not convinced that the malus to science/culture from number and city should work as now (i.e only updated when conquering or settling a city). I'm in favor of changing it to "always updated".
     
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