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Going for Gold: Annexation, Razing, and Puppeting

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jul 9, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jul 23, 2018.
  1. Yes

    78.6%
  2. No

    21.4%
  1. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    Just to be clear, Puppets generate 20% of usual yields but otherwise there is nothing special about them, right? Am I missing something? Also do they increase research costs or not?
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    They don't increase research nor cultural costs. They don't provide military supply. They don't produce great people. They produce only 20% yields, except food and production that is 100%. The building maintenance is 100% the same. They produce 1 unhappiness every 4-5 people (not sure how much now).

    In theory, when your puppets are big enough to produce too much unhappiness in your empire, they should be in good shape for being assymilated.
     
  3. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    Thank you!
     
  4. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    Actually hang on - with the same maintenance costs, I guess the logic of puppets would then be that puppets end up costing you gold in the long run. Does this line up historically?
     
  5. Legen

    Legen Chieftain

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    Note that, currently, puppets can generate negative tourism due to the -80% penalty stacking additively with the penalty for number of controlled cities. A puppet can actually lower your tourism as is receives Great Works or builds a Hotel.

    Already added to github.
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Not a bug - negative tourism is possible.

    G
     
  7. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    Is it really intended that a puppet building a Hotel sinks your Tourism output?
     
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    They still shouldn't build tourism buildings if the net output is negative. It would be better to do a process.
     
    Owlbebach, CrazyG and LukaSlovenia29 like this.
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Can we please change this?
     
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Pretty sure JDF uses the mechanic - I think the real issue is that you shouldn't be able to go below -100% modifier.

    G
     
  12. Legen

    Legen Chieftain

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    Unless you're Venice, yes. It just takes a third owned city for a puppet to start generating negative tourism. Can be partially dealt with Imperialism, but still can go negative if you found/annex enough cities.

    The annoying part is that the "Optimize" button will still try to get a themed bonus in puppets, regardless of how that lowers your tourism. The optimization algorithm seems to assume cities can't have tourism penalties (relative to each other).

    Agree.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  13. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned, Puppets should always provide benefits (albeit minimal), while having some kind of drawbacks (e.g. not providing population for supply). The notion that even -100% tourism would be the case nullifies most if any purpose for the Puppet to exist. If that's the case at that point in the game, then the option of Puppeting a city ought to be removed at the appropriate time. If Puppetting is an option, it should always have a clear benefit.
     
  14. TheBigFundamental

    TheBigFundamental Chieftain

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    Is it possible to change the code so it'd be possible to raze a puppet city? I find it bothersome that if I want to raze a city, I have to annex it first, increasing my culture&science costs, and that to me is the biggest obstacle against razing. And to avoid abuse by starting and stopping razing in puppets to control the population, we could set it up so that razing a puppet cannot be halted.
     
  15. civplayer33

    civplayer33 Chieftain

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    The way I understand the mechanics you always annex the city before you puppet anyway. So let's say you have 5 cities and go to war and there you capture 1 city and choose "Puppet" then you will still have sci/cul malus equal to 6 cities. The difference to annexation is, among other things, that your next conquest, if you puppet it again, will not increase your internal city count despite you annexing it internally again at first, because you again only have 5 cities but an internal count of 6.

    So if you raze only one city at a time it shouldn't increase your sci/cul costs unless you annexed or founded additional cities in the meantime.

    Just to make it absolutely clear here's an example (internal city count is what determines the malus):
    • You found 5 cities...........................................................current internal city count: 5
    • You conquer one city and puppet it................................current internal city count: 6
    • You conquer three more cities and puppet them...........current internal city count: 6
    • You raze one of your puppeted cities.............................current internal city count: 6
    • You raze another puppet after the first is dust...............current internal city count: 6
    As you can see, as long as you raze them one after the other it won't increase your malus. Now if you annex or found more cities, that will increase your internal city count if you annex/found more than 1 or puppet more cities after founding/annexing 1.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
    CppMaster and TheBigFundamental like this.
  16. TheBigFundamental

    TheBigFundamental Chieftain

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    Whoa, that's very interesting and opens up a whole new can of strategy worms for me, thanks! Just to be on the safe side, have you verified this through in-game testing?
     
  17. civplayer33

    civplayer33 Chieftain

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    Yeah these are the assumptions I'm founding my strategies on, as well; I'm 99% sure this is all correct and so far the in-game behavior has confirmed it. I think this was even the way it worked in vanilla to a large degree.

    Edit: another thing I didn't mention explicitly is that your internal city count can never decrease, only increase, so keep that in mind.

    Edit2: all of this is also true for liberation, btw. (that I have actually just tested), so liberation is essentially like puppeting in that it will increase your internal count if your number of non-puppet cities is equal to the internal count at the moment you liberate the city.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  18. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo Chieftain

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    I would say currently the balance between all options is good that they have a use.

    I noticed that razing hardly ever creates defending units anymore.
     
  19. civplayer33

    civplayer33 Chieftain

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    I agree about the balance but I certainly have seen defending units after razing several times now, though they may have been fewer than in previous patches. I wouldn't say they need to be increased in number or frequency.
     
  20. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo Chieftain

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    I liked when the defending unit spawn when it was first created, you had units spawning quite often, though admittedly it made the razing option too weak. (And the AI had an issue with sticking around until the city was fully razed) Right now it happens so rarely that I forget it’s a feature.

    Also, does anyone else find the AI hardly ever razes cities anymore? They do plenty of puppeting and even liberate quite often if they can. Razing seems uncommon now.
     

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