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Going for Gold: City State Bonuses

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 7, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 21, 2018.
  1. Yes

    42.9%
  2. No

    57.1%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

    This thread will debate the various aspect of City State Bonuses:

    1) Bonuses of Maritime vs Cultural, etc.
    2) The Tribute bonuses
    3) The type of CS (Friendly, Hostile, Indifferent)


    The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

    Important Notes:

    1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
    2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
    3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
    4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
     
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    My notes here:

    1) I think Religious CS are the odd man out here. The faith is really nice early and then drops off markedly later in the game. I don't care a lick about them after the initially religious work is done, as its not enough late game faith to really help with GP buying.

    2) Personally I really don't like the Hostile personality type. Its supposed to be for variety, but I just find it makes the CS a pain to deal with for no benefit. That said, by my own rules I debate, I don't know if this is serious enough to warrant change at this point.

    3) When you first meet a CS, most bonuses are meager, which is fine. The exception is the one that gives you 5 influence with that CS. Is that every actually useful? I found it just means after 5 turns I have gotten 0 from that CS.
     
  3. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Chieftain

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    I agree on the influence boost, 5 influence is useless.

    Another point I would like to submit is the following:
    Bonus from encountering CS are huges (which I like), and kind of random. In some sense they have the same role as ancient ruins. However, if there is an option to disable ancient ruin, there is not any option for CS encounter bonus, and it doesn't makes sense to me. They both are random bonuses that reward early exploration. There is little reason to want to disable one and keep the other.
     
  4. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Chieftain

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    I think religious ones are pretty weak and by far the worst. It's way better to just bully them than get their bonus, at least before Chanceries are available that is. This city state type cannot carry itself on it's own merit. It doesn't even provide enough to truly help you found, probably not to overly weaken the civs who get early religious UAs/UBs - but this one is just bad. Even early on it's underwhelming, and later on it's bonus just barely exist.
    Suggestion - give it +1 Faith in every city on top of what it already gets, just like Maritime gets +Food in every city. At least it'd have a purpose this way.

    Tributes are balanced I'd say. If you start near many CSs and have a Spear UU it's probably too easy to get an early ball going, but I don't know if we should balance around RNG.
     
  5. Chandler

    Chandler Chieftain

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    Hm... But that would benefit mostly wide empires, while small ones would still have the same problem, as the cost of purchasing thing with faith is not reduced with fewer cities.

    What if religious city-states gave some GAP, on top of faith? Maybe half the points of faith they currently give?
     
  6. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Chieftain

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    Tall would still benefit, at 4 cities it'd be +4 Faith stronger than now. Wide would get +12 at 12 so more, but not overly so I'd say. They have to spend more Faith to convert anyway.
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    If this is an appropriate place to talk about CS unit gifts, there are a few units that are pretty crap as CS gifts because they don't get their UA boosts

    This is especially bad on mohawk warrior because it gets a bonus in forest, but has no woodsman promotion if given as a CS

    Could some UUs be given free promotions from their parent civ's UA, so they aren't lemons as CS gifts?

    Units that need it:
    Mohawk Warrior (Woodsman promotion)

    Other units with UA bonuses, but not needed:
    Berserker (Viking)
    Minuteman (+1 vision)
    Ship of the Line (+1 movement)
    Carolean (+20% attack)
    Slinger (Hill movement bonus)
    Mandekalu Cavalry (Amphibious promotion)
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  8. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Chieftain

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    Mohawk is a pretty awful unit I don't really want a CS to have, the "less needed" are fine though.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I like the idea of Religious getting GAP, similar to how military also gets science.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    That’s a ton of code, especially since units don’t know what their parent is innately. Not feasible.

    G
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Wouldn't it be just a matter of giving the unit a free promotion in the unit_freepromotion table? If the unit is owned by its own civ, the free promotion doesn't do anything, since you can't get 2 copies of the same promotion

    So for example, If mohawk warriors have the Woodsman promotion as a free promotion, and the Iroquois UA gives all units the woodsman promotion, then a Mohawk warrior would only be different within the context of a CS gift
     
  12. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

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    Maybe a :c5faith:Faith bonus that is flat over time and a :c5goldenage:GAP bonus that scales over time? (like @Chandler suggests). Or both smaller, but scaling.

    Probably too much code, but "Hostile" could be changed from increased :c5influence:Influence Decay to something like "offers 33% fewer quests, but each is worth 33% more in terms of :c5influence:Influence".

    I think the personality types are OK and give some needed variety.
    Were we starting from scratch, I'd suggest something like
    • Neutral: baseline/normal
    • Loyal: :c5influence:Influence decay with Ally 25% lower, everybody else's decay 25% higher (i.e., faster)
    • Friendly: Every Civ's default :c5influence:Influence resting point is 10 points higher
    • Quixotic: :c5influence:Influence gained from quests 25% higher, Influence gained from regular diplomatic units 25% lower (not including Great People)
    Yeah, 5 temporary :c5influence:Influence is useless. Bump to 20:c5influence:? Or how about being given a certain quest (a "starter" quest)?
     
    pineappledan likes this.
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Units can get a duplicate of a promotion actually. And that’s where it gets complicated.

    G
     
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Oh. The reason I thought that is because whenever the drill I promotion from Alhambra comes up, it’s always mentioned that no promotion would be given to a unit that already has that promotion. I wasn’t aware that there might be cases where it would work one way only some of the time.
    this sounds like a great idea, except I don’t know why you would want the differences to be so great on loyal and quixotic. Having -25% decay on ally only, and +25% on quests would be good, no need to also have a penalty. you could do a few more like so, maybe not all of them would be necessary.
    • Neutral - baseline/normal
    • Friendly - +10 resting :c5influence: influence
    • Aloof - -10 resting :c5influence: influence
    • Loyal - :c5influence: influence decay with ally is 25% slower
    • Fickle - :c5influence: influence decay with ally is 25% faster
    • Adventurous - +25%:c5influence: influence from quests
    • Stately - +25%:c5influence: influence from diplomatic missions
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The code for that wonder is a bit different.

    G
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Civ coding is scary-inconsistent...
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think we are past the point of adding new types. Best to just balance what we have.
     
    Gazebo likes this.
  18. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Good idea for a ModMod!
     
    Skidizzle, Gokudo01 and Hinin like this.
  19. grmagne

    grmagne Chieftain

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    1. One thing I like about the Hostile CS are that they're usually available for an alliance later in the game. If I'm not Statecraft and I share a continent with Siam & Austria then all the Friendly & Neutral are probably allied with them. But the Hostiles often don't have an ally and that can be an easy target for my envoy-spam.

    2. For Faith-based CS, I wouldn't mind if they provided periodic Great Person points, in addition to faith, similar to how militaristic will provide science and then an occasional military unit.

    3. I'm not sure if this is possible to code (or maybe it's too many messages?): If killing a barbarian were dropped to something like 5 or 8 influence in exchange for 3 influence for attacking a barbarian in CS territory. Right now if there's a horde of barbarians attacking a CS then my units will just stand around waiting for a heavily-damaged unit that's easy to kill. It's like a sports athlete standing around looking for the glory of a goal without doing anything else to help the team. It shouldn't be too exploitable for farming since barbs will run away when injured and you can only hit them so many times.
     
  20. Chandler

    Chandler Chieftain

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    Hm... I'm not completely sure about this and how the code works regarding other AI controlled civs, but I'd say the "Barbarian Horde" quest already favors the human player. So not a fan of making it even easier to get more influence through this quest. If you want that nice little bump of influence for killing barbarians, just bring more units there, right? So you are able to kill at least one of them on your own, even if it's still at full HP.
     
    wobuffet likes this.

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