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Going for Gold: Corporations

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by pineappledan, Jan 23, 2019.

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Are Corporations in a good state of balance?

  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    27.3%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    72.7%
  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

    The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

    Important Notes:

    1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
    2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
    3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
    4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
     
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  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    All the Corporations' info, pulled from the Wiki. If this info is out wrong, please indicate what and I will update
    Spoiler Trader Sid's :

    Corporation: Trader Sid's
    Prerequisite Resource: Cloves, Nutmeg, Pepper, Cocoa, Salt, Spices, Sugar, Tobacco
    Head Office Benefits:
    +2:trade: Trade routes
    +100% :trade: Land TR distance
    +2:c5gold: to Caravansaries and Markets on Empire​
    Office Benefits:
    +4:c5gold: per Franchise
    +1:c5gold: to prereq resources near City
    +2:c5gold: to :trade: ETRs targeting the city
    +25%:c5gold: for :trade:TRs targeting a city with a Franchise​
    Franchise Benefits:
    +1:c5gold: to prereq resources near City​


    Spoiler Centaurus Extractors :

    Corporation: Centaurus Extractors
    Prerequisite Resource: Coral, Crab, Ivory, Whales, Horses,
    Head Office Benefits:
    +2:trade: Trade routes
    +100% :trade: Sea TR distance
    +2:c5production: to Harbor and Seaports on Empire​
    Office Benefits:
    +3:c5production: per Franchise
    +1:c5production: to prereq resources near City
    +1:c5production: to Ocean tiles near City
    +10%:c5science: for :trade:TRs targeting a city with a Franchise​
    Franchise Benefits:
    +1:c5gold: to prereq resources near City​


    Spoiler Hexxon Refinery :

    Corporation: Hexxon Refinery
    Prerequisite Resource: Brazilwood, Glass, Incense, Perfume, Coal, Oil, Uranium
    Head Office Benefits:
    +1:trade: Trade route
    +15% :c5production:Production towards units that require Oil/Coal/Uranium
    +3:c5production: to Coal/Nuclear/Solar plants on Empire​
    Office Benefits:
    +1 Oil/Coal for every 3 Franchises
    +1:c5production: to prereq resources near City
    +15%:c5production: towards military units
    +10%:c5production: for :trade:TRs targeting a city with a Franchise​
    Franchise Benefits:
    +1:c5gold: to prereq resources near City​


    Spoiler Giorgio Armeier :

    Corporation: Giorgio Armeier
    Prerequisite Resource: Cotton, Dyes, Furs, Lapis Lazuli, Silk
    Head Office Benefits:
    +2:trade: Trade route
    +1:c5culture: to Specialists
    +2:c5culture: to Museums and Opera Houses on Empire​
    Office Benefits:
    +2:c5culture: per Franchise
    +1:c5culture: to prereq resources near City
    +1:c5happy: in City
    +10%:c5culture: in City for :trade:TRs targeting a city with a Franchise​
    Franchise Benefits:
    +1:c5gold: to prereq resources near City​


    Spoiler 2Kay Foods :

    Corporation: 2Kay Foods
    Prerequisite Resource: Citrus, Coffee, Olives, Tea, Truffles, Wine
    Head Office Benefits:
    +1:trade: Trade route
    Trade Routes Reveal Fog of War
    +2:c5food: to Grocers and Agribusinesses on Empire​
    Office Benefits:
    +3:c5food: per Franchise
    +1:c5food: to prereq resources near City
    +10%:c5food: in City
    +10%:c5food: in City for :trade:TRs targeting a city with a Franchise​
    Franchise Benefits:
    +1:c5gold: to prereq resources near City​


    Spoiler Firaxite Materials :

    Corporation: Firaxite Materials
    Prerequisite Resource: Copper, Jade, Marble, Porcelain, Iron, Aluminum
    Head Office Benefits:
    +1:trade: Trade route
    Trade Routes cannot be pillaged
    +3:c5science: to Factories on Empire​
    Office Benefits:
    +2:c5science: per Franchise
    +1:c5science: to prereq resources near City
    +20%:c5production: towards Buildings
    +100%:c5science: from :trade:TRs targeting a city with a Franchise​
    Franchise Benefits:
    +1:c5gold: to prereq resources near City​


    Spoiler Civilized Jewelers :

    Corporation: Civilized Jewelers
    Prerequisite Resource: Amber, Gems, Gold, Jewelery, Pearls, Silver
    Head Office Benefits:
    +1:trade: Trade route
    2x Trade Routes movement speed
    +2:c5goldenage: to Banks and Customs Houses on Empire​
    Office Benefits:
    +10%:c5greatperson:GP Rate per Franchise
    +1:c5goldenage: to prereq resources near City
    +15%:c5greatperson: GP Rate
    +10%:c5gold: in City for :trade:TRs targeting a city with a Franchise​
    Franchise Benefits:
    +1:c5gold: to prereq resources near City​


     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  3. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    What sucks is the tech tree doesn't say everything, and neither do the HQ buildings. It's a new feature that lacks explanation. You have to use civilopedia and search for every franchise/etc to find out what is what.
     
  4. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I dunno about that...if you open the civilopedia (one click) then you'll see Corporations right at the bottom of its home page; if you click on that it will display an entry with some general info as well as entries for every corporation, which in turn have links to all their elements, including to the entries of the office and franchise buildings.
    If you wanna use the tech tree just right click on one of the corporation icons in there and it will take you to the civilopedia corporation page as well, so I don't think this is a problem, to be honest.
    You don't need to use the search function at all; maybe you didn't notice the entry on the civilopedia homepage or try right click in the tech tree?


    On a different note, I do think that what several people have now said in the other thread about franchises being a bit weird is warranted. It would be nice to look at ways they can be improved, such as giving them some yields (for the target civ of the trade route, which will "host" the franchise).

    Another thing is balance between the corporations; I personally find Hexxon to be a bit underwhelming compared to the others and I'm not sure what to think of TwoKay Foods...I never actually picked the latter, though.
     
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  5. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    I wonder how much people prioritize Corporation over the other techs. I generally find that this tech isn't that important compared to the other techs I can get in this era depending if I go for military (Replaceable parts and Combustion) or, if I got Freedom, there's no doubt I'm going for Biology. What's the incentive to go for Corporation before those other techs except for Broadway and/or Prora?

    My other issue with Corporation is where, if I'm playing Tradition and have only a single Monopoly and the Corporation tied to that Monopoly is taken. Then I'm left with nothing? Should we address this issue or are people fine with this?
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    It's a difficult thing to discuss because You often get the choice of 1 or 2 corporations, so you just build what is available to you, and what you have the most resources of for the tile benefits.

    That being said, there are a few things which stick out to me:
    • At least on paper, Giorgio Armeier appears to be the strongest corporation, hands down. +1:c5culture: on specialists is a very solid bonus, :c5culture: is arguably the best yield, and they get comparable yields to everyone else.
    • Outside of 1-2 cities, Civilized Jewelers' main bonuses are basically useless. :c5greatperson:GPP rate on offices won't benefit wide play much, so it seems like a hardcore tall corporation, but you often don't have the luxury of choosing what your corporation is. 1:c5goldenage: GAP also happens to be the weakest tile bonus.
      • Proposal: Change the base +15%:c5greatperson:GPrate on offices to +5% GA Length, and keep the +10%:c5greatperson: GPrate per franchise. That gives this corporation some wide play.
    • Outside of Civilized Jewelers -- which is more of an aberration than a balance concern -- 2Kay Foods looks like the weakest of the bunch. Food is nice, but its building bonus is locked the the most situational building of the entire bunch, Agribusiness, and requires 2 horses each so you wont get much use of it. At that point of the game, :c5food: isn't a high priority, yet the bonuses are lower than the :c5gold: bonuses that Trader Sid's gives.
      • Proposal: Change the food bonus to be +3:c5food: to Grocers and Hospitals
      • Proposal: Increase the Office bonus to +4:c5food: per Franchise
    • Firaxite Materials gives 3:c5science: to Factories, and ONLY factories, but isn't the Coal monopoly corporation. Hexxon Refineries is. This is weird.
      • Proposal: Move Hexxon's +3:c5production: to Factories from Coal plants
      • Proposal: Firaxite should give +2:c5science: to Forges and Workshops
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  7. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    tutorial noted.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Y'all hash this out however you want, just gotta say I'm still quite proud of all of my punny Corporation names EXCEPT Centaurus. That's one ugly stepchild.

    G
     
  9. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    IMHO, Trader Sid's and 2Kay Foods are the weakest, because their yields are less valuable than others.

    Also, how about distributing corporation to different techs in the same level? Like Hexxon Refinery and Firaxite Materials to a military tech...
     
  10. TheBigFundamental

    TheBigFundamental Chieftain

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    Agreed. Gold at that stage of the game is usually in abundant supply so having this doesn't really move the needle, and there's not enough turns left for the extra food to make a significant difference.
     
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  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Trader Sid's does provide +2 TRs though, so that is not to be underestimated. 2Kay I agree is likely the weakest of the bunch.
     
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  12. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I think it goes like
    Giorgio >= Centaurus > the rest > Trader Sid >>> 2Kay
     
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  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    • Giorgio is the clear winner. Best yields, solid ability, and it's one of the 3 that give 2 TRs for some reason.
    • Centaurus is 2nd, but locked to coastal civs. It basically gives no boost to non-coastal cities, but you wouldn't even get access to the monopoly if you weren't already coastal. +1:c5production: on all ocean tiles is great. It also gives +2 TRs.
    • Firaxite is a close 3rd. The specific bonuses are all over the place. +3:c5science: to factories and +100% to :c5science:TRs are garbage, but +1:c5science: on resource, 3:c5science: per franchise and +20%:c5production: towards buildings are SOLID.
    • Trader Sid's is straightforward gold. Gold gold gold. The buildings it boosts are the lowest build cost, it gives the highest amount per franchise. It's just a TON of reliable gold.
    • Hexxon is fine if you're militaristic, bad if you aren't. +30%:c5production: on units that take strategic resources, and +15%:c5production: on the rest. Considering 1/2 of the monopoly resources to unlock are strategics, it's unlikely you would even be capable of building this unless you were heading that way anyways, so it's probably fine.
    • Civilized Jewelers is fine if you're tall, but complete garbage if you're wide/militaristic. GP focus will only benefit cities that are likely to generate GPs, and the Golden Age boosts might help specific GA civs, but even the boosts it provides to that are just sad. Something has to be done to help push this corporation wide. Interesting Portugal synergy though; this corporation doubles the power of Portugal's UA.
    • TwoKay: probably the nicest icon. But other than that, it's the worst. It has no niche, it's got the 2nd worst yield type, it doesn't even give that many of its respective yield overall. The vision on TRs is nice though. Probably the most useful of those traits.
    It's weird that the top 2 corporations get 2 free :trade: TRs and the bottom 2 corporations both only get 1 free :trade:TR. That's the easiest fix right there, knock Giorgio and Centaurus down to 1 TR, and bump 2Kay and Civilized up to 2 TRs.

    One fun potential thing to add to the corporations - each Corp could give its boost to 1 bonus resource, in addition to its monopoly resources.
    • Giorgio: Sheep
    • Centaurus: Cattle
    • Firaxite: Stone
    • Hexxon: Bison
    • Trader Sid's: Bananas
    • Civilized: Deer
    • TwoKay: Wheat
    Probably won't happen, but it could be a fun little addition, so that corporate offices outside your region-locked luxury resource maybe get a benefit to the tile boosts
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  14. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    What if TwoKay additionally reduce all needs? It would be nice for civs that are behind and fits the icon :p
     
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  15. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Hexxon is weak imo, I've never built it. A small amount of Strategics is not worth sacrificing all those other yields imo.

    Most Corporations are actually relatively balanced imo. Giorgio/Firaxite were nerfed down to 2 per Franchise by the way. Giorgio could lose a Trade Route and give one to TwoKay.
     
  16. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Wrong Corporation description:
    Centaur Extractors, Hexxon Refineries, Civilized Jeweleries, Twokay Foods didnt improve the yields from trade routes, they improve the yields in the origin city. Firaxite Minerals bonus to trade routes is only 50%, not 100%. Trader Sids bonus only 25% instead of 50%.

    My ranking:
    1. Giorgio Armeier
    2. Firaxite Materials
    3. Centaur Extractors
    4. Trader Sids
    5. Twokay Food
    6. Hexxon Refinery
    7. Civilized Jewelers

    Giorgio is too powerful. A lot of culture by franchises, the possibility to double the amount by your specialists and double the amount of culture in your capital, is a too powerful combination.
    Centaur and Firaxite are kinda interchangable, both give production and science, a good combination and good balanced.
    Trader Sids is good too, I would simply bump the gold from a franchise by 1 gold or increase the modifier for gold on trade routes a bit.
    Twokay needs definitly a buff:
    The headquarter bonus should give Grocers and Hospitals +5% of food is saved on growth (instead of flat food for grocer and agribusiness)
    Monopoly Luxuries also get +3 food, and the food modifier is increased to +20% for offices. Trade route bonus stays.
    Hexxon Refinery should also give horses and aluminium, additional to oil and coal. Both are needed for warfare and both give nice 25% monopoly (+5 healing and +10% defence). Also give it a 20% production on every unit, instead of those which need ressources.
    Civilized Jewelers is relative useless in that stage of the game. Wide or militaristic play can completly ignore this corporation. My suggestion would be:
    Headqarter bonus increase GA length by 25%, every city generate 3 GAP/faith
    Offices generate +1 GP point for every type, +15% GP generation for every franchise, Monopoly luxuries gives +3 GAP/faith
    Trade routes increase the faith of the origin city by 10%
     
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  17. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    2 more problems:
    The trade distance increase by Trader Sids and Centaurs can be more punishing than helping. The proximity penalty is always based on the maximum distance, if you increase it by 100% but stay with your trade targets, you get less out of it.

    All the Trade route bonuses can be working on external trade routes, but none on internal. Iam not sure if my offices also work as franchises or only count as franchises, if I go order. But, even they count as franchises, picking Firaxite Materials is useless for it, cause it increase trade route science, but theres none on ITR.
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Neither of these are possible
     
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  19. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Iconography belief gives +2 GP point towards every type.
    World wonder gives GP points towards a specific type.
    Is adding the same ability from world wonders to a normal building impossible?
     
  20. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    @pineappledan Giorgio/Firaxite were nerfed to 2 Culture/Science per Franchise respectively, might want to update that.
     
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