Going for Gold: Enhancer Beliefs

[Rekk]

Why do Zealotry faith costs scale with production AND era?

 

[Bromar1]

Why do Zealotry faith costs scale with production AND era?

Yeah this makes it hard to gauge how much faith you need

 

[Rekk]

I would think this is also why people find that Jesuit Education's science buildings aren't worth buying either; they scale too high.

 

[matlajs]

I think Mendicancy is really tempting for early game yields + internal production routes may help with WW sniping. But it IMO fading pretty early too. I think it could use 1 free TR.

 

[Galbias]

I'm thinking Orthodoxy might be a bit overtuned. Ritual and Scripture were a bit redundant so I can see why they were merged but in my current game it's feeling a bit like pre-nerf Ritual from much older versions where once you hit a certain amount of spread and built roads, it turns into an unstoppable tidal wave and it wasn't too uncommon to see a single religion take over the entire world, at least on Pangea maps. Has anyone else had similar experiences? Might try it myself with a religious civ next game to see if I can replicate it. I think Ritual was in a good spot previously, it would generate additional pressure but it wouldn't really overwhelm a civ unless you converted everyone else around them or you're India or something like that.

It's particularly frustrating because afaik there's not really much you can do to defend against it except just buy Inquisitors over and over which gets progressively more expensive as the game goes on (or maybe the Enhancer that lets Missionaries erode existing pressure to use on other cities but that seems like a stretch), and you're punished for creating a religion that doesn't succeed since you can't take advantage of the Reformation belief of the religion that overwhelms you, or conquer another religion.

 

[ElliotS]

I'm thinking Orthodoxy might be a bit overtuned. Ritual and Scripture were a bit redundant so I can see why they were merged but in my current game it's feeling a bit like pre-nerf Ritual from much older versions where once you hit a certain amount of spread and built roads, it turns into an unstoppable tidal wave and it wasn't too uncommon to see a single religion take over the entire world, at least on Pangea maps. Has anyone else had similar experiences? Might try it myself with a religious civ next game to see if I can replicate it. I think Ritual was in a good spot previously, it would generate additional pressure but it wouldn't really overwhelm a civ unless you converted everyone else around them or you're India or something like that.

It's particularly frustrating because afaik there's not really much you can do to defend against it except just buy Inquisitors over and over which gets progressively more expensive as the game goes on (or maybe the Enhancer that lets Missionaries erode existing pressure to use on other cities but that seems like a stretch), and you're punished for creating a religion that doesn't succeed since you can't take advantage of the Reformation belief of the religion that overwhelms you, or conquer another religion.

You do know that only the founder's cities output extra pressure, right?

 

[Stalker0]

Playing mostly small map continents ive found orthodoxy surprisingly tame. I’ve been underwhelmed with its power

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

After two version with new Enhancers, what are everyone's thoughts?

I think Mandicancy is very much too weak compared to others, especially since it doesn't give +4f AND 4p to internal trade routes, but only 4f OR 4p.

Orthodoxy (increased religious pressure/distance) is too strong, in all of my games it always goes first and the AI that picks it eventually converts everyone else due to passive religious pressure.

With how punitive the new numbers for required social policies for wonders are, the "ignore all social policy requirements for wonders" part of Prophecy makes this enhancer OP.

How does everyone like Snycretism? I haven't seen it picked once by the AI, and for myself, I see little reason to pick it compared to some of the other Enhancers and due to the lost yields the strategy entails (Religous distress -> lost yields from lower happiness, loss of yields if you select a per follower belief, Holy Law etc.).

My post from a while ago. I usually play on Pangea, and Orthodoxy is extremely strong and requires no effort to be good (unlike Zealotry).

My above-quoted opinion has remained unchanged after playing with these changes for a while now. One exception is that I've seen Syncretism selected a few times by the AI, but given that Gazebo increased unhappiness from religious dissent, it's even worse than I previously thought.

 

[kawyua]

I really want to try syncretism with pagodas at some point with a domination plan. But, iconography just seems way to good.
Does anyone know how pagodas -25% minority unhappiness change works with religious dissent?

 

[chicorbeef]

How does everyone feel about Inquisition? I like the concept but it looks a bit clunky (specifically the reverse scaling part). Is it abusable given repeat conversions? Why not increase the Gold given but make it so that it only works the first time a city is converted (if possible?).

I've yet to actually try it, though, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt.

 

[Stalker0]

How does everyone feel about Inquisition? I like the concept but it looks a bit clunky (specifically the reverse scaling part). Is it abusable given repeat conversions? Why not increase the Gold given but make it so that it only works the first time a city is converted (if possible?).

I've yet to actually try it, though, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt.

I'll give me full review of the various beliefs later on, but right now I think Iconography is king. The ignore wonders is actually extremely powerful after the increase in wonder prereqs, and the GP bonuses are pretty darn solid as well.

 

[ElliotS]

but given that Gazebo increased unhappiness from religious dissent, it's even worse than I previously thought.

If it's weak adding religious needs decrease on it would make sense.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

If it's weak adding religious needs decrease on it would make sense.

I personally would go as far as proposing it eliminates all religious dissent/unhappiness. That would make it more viable and practical

 

[matlajs]

How does everyone feel about Inquisition? I like the concept but it looks a bit clunky (specifically the reverse scaling part). Is it abusable given repeat conversions? Why not increase the Gold given but make it so that it only works the first time a city is converted (if possible?).

I've yet to actually try it, though, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt.

I am playing with it right now. And TBH- it may yield pretty nice pouch of gold. Problem with it is that, that it doesn't really have a good synergy with follower beliefs. Me personaly picked two yield/follower beliefs. That way i benefit from followers and get money, if city becomes neutral. I think, that it is not much good with buildings, because those have pressure defense. It has nice synergy with spies for happines, especially with statecraft. I think that gold decrease per era could be just -50, not 100. I think, that this may become especially usefull against a neighbour with orthodoxy+ fealty+ god protect us, churches.

 

[Galbias]

Definitely agree with no maintenance on Inquisitors for Inquisition and have them halve passive pressure from other religions (or double it for own religion) as long as they're stationed in a city, or reduce their Faith cost by 50% if that's not feasible. The extra gold is nice but it would be great to have an Enhancer that helps you against high passive pressure long-term, and as it is they're not significantly cheaper and the gold bonus falls off, and the foreign pressure from spies isn't terribly helpful for that. A religiously defensive Enhancer is something I wanted in my current game (for keeping my own religion against strong outside pressure) but Inquisition honestly wouldn't have helped that much.

Syncretism could definitely use a good chunk of reduction of religious division unhappiness. I'm tempted to say maybe an increase in passive pressure to owned cities without your religion because with it you want foreign followers, but if the city loses majority religion you lose the entire bonus. Maybe bonus pressure for your own religion if the number of followers for it falls under 60% or so?

Playing mostly small map continents ive found orthodoxy surprisingly tame. I’ve been underwhelmed with its power

It's Pangaea where it really kicks in, on maps with smaller continents it doesn't really build up that critical mass of pressure.

You do know that only the founder's cities output extra pressure, right?

Yeah. It's Ethiopia who's doing it in said game, he's converted most of the main landmass via active or passive spread and the pressure is huge even though I'm nearly on the other side of it and have two religious buildings, and it only gets worse as the game goes on given that Inquisitors get more expensive and I believe pressure goes up due to population and the distance that pressure travels goes up due to railroads. I tried to do something similar in my own game as Ethiopia awhile back with Ritual but it never got to the point where I was able to passively convert entrenched civs on the other side of the continent, this is the post with the game if you're curious https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-stories-go-here.572957/page-4#post-14964824

 

[ElliotS]

Yeah. It's Ethiopia who's doing it in said game, he's converted most of the main landmass via active or passive spread and the pressure is huge even though I'm nearly on the other side of it and have two religious buildings, and it only gets worse as the game goes on given that Inquisitors get more expensive and I believe pressure goes up due to population and the distance that pressure travels goes up due to railroads. I tried to do something similar in my own game as Ethiopia awhile back with Ritual but it never got to the point where I was able to passively convert entrenched civs on the other side of the continent, this is the post with the game if you're curious https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-stories-go-here.572957/page-4#post-14964824

My point is that if he's on the other side of the continent then Orthodoxy is less to blame. Also remember that an option always on the table is... murder.

 

[chicorbeef]

Also remember that an option always on the table is... murder.

Is this something you learned in Chicago?

 

[ElliotS]

Is this something you learned in Chicago?

There are some things you can only learn when public schools are insanely underfunded.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Orthodoxy on Pangea is extremely strong, imo too strong compared to other enhancers, especially if the game involves more peaceful civs and you yourself want to play peacefully.

 

[Stalker0]

Orthodoxy on Pangea is extremely strong, imo too strong compared to other enhancers, especially if the game involves more peaceful civs and you yourself want to play peacefully.

So is there a way to decrease it on Pangea but maybe increase it on continents?