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Going for Gold: Enhancer Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think resilience is pretty good. It does have a scripture light affect but it’s other effects are solid.

    For builds around great persons and holy sites it has value
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I've thought about turning Pacifism into a reversi-spreader: reduced foreign pressure (mabye -50%), but - as the tradeoff - foreign cities with your religion cannot be targeted for purging. Could be fun. Enhancers are IMO one of the last vestiges of the crappy religion stuff from vanilla.

    G
     
  3. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    What do you think about removing Ritual or Scripture? I really don't know why we need 2 of the same crappy belief. Keep the stronger one and replace the weaker IMO.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Sorry, I meant Ritual, not Pacifism.

    G
     
    Legen, LukaSlovenia29 and ElliotS like this.
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Makes sense. Pacifism should give some free missionaries tho, it's really weak.
     
    Gokudo01 likes this.
  6. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I've often posted here about enhancers being among the more unbalanced remaining parts of VP, I'm glad that they're getting another look!

    Among other things, I still think there aren't enough good enhancing options for boxed-in/non-spreading religions, I'd wish for at least one more.

    The ritual idea sounds interesting. Purging probably means using inquisitors? However, if we're limited with the current number of enhancer beliefs, I'd rather transform it into a good non-spreading enhancer.
     
    CrabHelmet likes this.
  7. Legen

    Legen King

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    I like the idea behind Ritual and Scripture, but I do think they are on the weak side of the enhancers. Problem is, most enhancers can provide some extra yields for whatever yo'ure planning to do; even Zealotry means free production. Ritual and Scripture are at best less faith spent on conversions, but very slow at that and requiring you to stack some other modifier to matter, like Fealty's Organized Religion or India's UA.

    Maybe these two mostly need a revision on their values, or have their secondary effect substituted for actual yields. I occasionally pick one of them to protect my religion, but I never find them ideal.
     
  8. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I must agree with you. It's difficult to care about spreading when I just want to reform and I know that I am able to do it with St Basil. There are also very few non spreading enhancers. We very often pick up a custom made religion that we don't want to share. I support delaying st basil.

    By the way, the bad thing about reforming via st basil is missing the holy building (some buffs to holy sites, raw yields and two delegates).
     
  9. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ C E L T I C S P E C I F I C E N H A N C E R ༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ
     
  10. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I've been thinking about St. Basil's and I'm slowly starting to think that I'd prefer if we removed the ability to reform without the required % of followers, to be replaced by something else.

    I think it's a very human friendly feature because it's one of the by far strongest wonders and the human player is much better at long-term planning on skipping spreading and then reforming by bee-lining for St. Basil's.

    Many reformation beliefs truly start to shine later in the game, so even pushing back St. Basil's won't change much, the non-spreading civ will still basically have the same benefit from reformation as a spreading civ. St. Basil's introduces, imo, a huge element of imbalance in the (religion) game where a spreading civ puts a lot of effort into spreading only to be left no (or marginally) better off then a non-spreading civ that has simply built one wonder.

    My opinion on this isn't strong, I'm still thinking about it. But I wanted to put this out here for consideration and discussion.
     
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  11. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I've asked this several times, but nobody replied.... Does Scripture and Ritual affect only your cities or all cities that have majority of this religion?
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  12. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I definitely know what you mean. There is one downside, though - it means Tall Religions can never Reform, which is a problem. That said, I think St. Basil being the only way for Tall Religions to Reform is also a problem. I don't know what the solution is here. To an extent it feels like a vanilla hangover, and needs wholesale change, but I can already hear @Gazebo's echoing cry of "no new code" as we speak.
     
  13. Legen

    Legen King

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    One option would be the population requirement to lower as we enter a new era. It would make sense that, as time passes, the society would adopt new values and pressure the clergy to reform. Playing Tall could then just mean a late reformation, rather than none. Still new code, though.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  14. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    What if reformation was available after you reach Industrial era, no matter how many % of the people worship your god? That'd help the problem a bit if you ask me.
     
  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Why not just reduce the people required to reform?
     
  16. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    That makes the gameplay more shallow. If the number of people required for reform is reduced, there are more reformers, and there's less chance you can't reform. If there's less chance you can't reform, there's a less important opportunity cost. It reduces the strategic depth present in the game.

    Ideally Reformation would remain limited, but not be limited merely to wide religions.
     
  17. Legen

    Legen King

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    By the way, this is the enhancer belief thread. Better continue ths discussion on the reformation one.
     
    Gokudo01 likes this.
  18. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I second this. I do not see any downsides of this, 20% is really hard to get on Standard map and actually requires some significant luck. But if we set it to 15% - i'm pretty sure we will not be seeing every religion Reformed every game, usually there is one religion that is significantly stronger than others, which will usually left 2 weakest religions without Reformation.
    I don't think so. First of all keep in mind that as i said usually one religion is significantly stronger because they snowball. Second, keep in mind that number of Reformation beliefs is limited, thats not only about getting reformation, it is about getting the right one. Third, most Founders scale pretty damn good from number of cities/followers so it still makes enough reason for strong religion to continue spreading after they reformed

    EDIT: I really like 15% because for Standard map, 5 Religions per 8-10 players on average it requires to spread to MORE than 1 Civilization. Usually when you spread to a non-founder - they start to buy missionaries and spread your religion all over their cities. When someone succeeded with conversion of one non-founder - there is less civs left. This is an ideal number to create some religion wars where you are spending faith on Missionaries to get that final 1-2%, which is a lot of fun!
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  19. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    +1.
     
    ElliotS and CrazyG like this.
  20. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    G piqued my interest when he said enhancers were the last of the vanilla crap. I'm psyched for seeing them fiddled with. It's always very "meh" to pick an enhancers right now, except for edge cases, like India grabbing cheaper prophets.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.

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