Going for Gold: Enhancer Beliefs

[Stalker0]

Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Important Notes:

1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.

 

[theMisterRud]

It might be ignorance, but I never understood/got value from Scripture, and I always thought that Resilience was underwhelming, as a Prophet-based strategy seams ... odd to me.

Again, might be lack of knowledge.

On the other end, Evangelism, Zealotry and Sainthood are top tier in my opinion, especially if you pair Sainthood with a a Tradition-Great people spawning strategy (Korea is especially suited for that)

 

[Mad Madigan]

Most of the Enhancer beliefs are highly useful at this point, but I still can't see the use for Ritual compared to any of the other Enhancers that help with spreading a religion. Especially the secondary component that increases pressure to Friendly City States. I think the secondary component should be changed to double the pressure from ALL trade routes, not just ones to friendly/allied CSs.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I voted yes. I think all have their niche, though admittedly Ritual is very similar to Scripture and probably not likely to be better. In general I think the ones that just help spread are a bit weaker than the others, but they definitely have their uses and niches, so it's okay.

 

[Bascule2000]

Tithes is a class above the others IMO. Sainthood is OK and the others I consider garbage. Maybe it's OK because it's a reward for enhancing first, but I don't think they are balanced.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Tithes is a class above the others IMO. Sainthood is OK and the others I consider garbage. Maybe it's OK because it's a reward for enhancing first, but I don't think they are balanced.

Tithe can be crazy, especially if you spread a lot and enhance in medieval. Was worth it the one time I did it, tons of gold, enough to buy a sofa. Sainthood is ok, yes, but do you think Zealotry is bad? For Spain and wide Byzantium it's an almost necessary way to spend your Faith before it all is converted into Great Prophets, and strategic resource % helps..

Also Resilience's good if you're TALL Byzantium/India. Guarantees two, three more Prophets, and all the holy sites you get are turned into probably the best tiles in the game.

 

[CrazyG]

Also Resilience's good if you're TALL Byzantium/India. Guarantees two, three more Prophets, and all the holy sites you get are turned into probably the best tiles in the game.

I still have a hard time seeing how this gives more yields than some of the other options. If I'm Byz I'd rather just take sainthood + glory of god to loop great people. This has got to be worth more yields than resilience + whatever.

 

[Rekk]

I still have a hard time seeing how this gives more yields than some of the other options. If I'm Byz I'd rather just take sainthood + glory of god to loop great people. This has got to be worth more yields than resilience + whatever.

The decision between Resilience and Sainthood is whether you have a Great Person based religion that will spread to foreigners.

 

[CrazyG]

Resilience is for Great Person based religions that aren't going to spread their religion to foreigners, while Sainthood is for the opposite.

In theory sure, but I think Sainthood is better even if you don't spread.

I think not spreading is generally a much worse strategy than spreading in the current game (if your neighbors have religions just attack them). A lot of people have talked about how war and aggression are good strategies right now, or how they have issues with tradition, and I think this is why. Its not just that I want to develop my own religion, if I don't some other AI can end up going nuts with Tithes or other beliefs. I really dislike this aspect of founders and enahncers, because spreading your religion to 3 other civs is basically a win condition and its super random to your starting locations. Its also a factor that really throws off balance between map sizes (the difference in yields you can earn for spreading religion between a 6 civ map and an 8 civ map is enormous and enough to dictate a completely different strategy)

 

[Txurce]

I really dislike this aspect of founders and enahncers, because spreading your religion to 3 other civs is basically a win condition and its super random to your starting locations.

Yet another example of why I thought nerfing chopping due to start advantage was like sticking your finger in a dike. There is so much complexity in this game that minor aspects are best accepted as richness, rather than as impediments to the Great Abstract Ideal of Universal Equality in world building.

 

[chicorbeef]

The thing with Sainthood is that it it so elusive in my games. The AI seems to pick it before I can even get to Hagia Sophia or enhance. It seems to be their top pick.

That's when Scripture/Ritual come into play, when you can't get Sainthood.

 

[Txurce]

The thing with Sainthood is that it it so elusive in my games. The AI seems to pick it before I can even get to Hagia Sophia or enhance. It seems to be their top pick.

That's when Scripture/Ritual come into play, when you can't get Sainthood.

That's interesting -- I never miss Sainthood. In fact, I wound up assuming that the AI's bonuses make the happiness not nearly as attractive as it is to me.

 

[CrazyG]

Yet another example of why I thought nerfing chopping due to start advantage was like sticking your finger in a dike. There is so much complexity in this game that minor aspects are best accepted as richness, rather than as impediments to the Great Abstract Ideal of Universal Equality in world building.

I realize you will always be at an advantage when your neighbors don't get religion but you do, and I accept that. Randomness is key for creating variety and replayability.

However, especially on maps with different continents, I find the religion situation has too much impact. If you are the only person on your contiennet who gets a relgion its such a good position. This makes aggression a really good strategy, because if I attack my neighbor he is so much less likely to get a relgion.

The way the yields are set up you tend to either get very little or a massive amount of yields. The X yields per city following. For example, council of elders that spreads to 10 cities gets a total of 220 hammers/science.

If you spread to 20 cities, that becomes 840 of each.
If you spread to 30, its 1,860. #

To get 30 cities requires some luck on a standard map, but its very doable. If you play 10 or 12 cities it can happen regularly. So the issue I see if I spread to just myself and a few CS, I'm getting a really bad deal. But if I spread to two neighbors, its impact is absurd. I think the other spreaders are actually much better than CoE (ceremonial burial for 120 culture/faith per great person snowballs in a hilarious way. Just 30 per is a strong effect). I just think tying the reward to the number of cities isn't all that smart. I would support some kind of a cap, like you earn more for more cities but it caps at the 15 city amount, that way its strong but I don't win the game just because I found a continent without religion before the AI did. You already get extra votes and positive relations, you don't need massive yields.

 

[chicorbeef]

That's interesting -- I never miss Sainthood. In fact, I wound up assuming that the AI's bonuses make the happiness not nearly as attractive as it is to me.

Sainthood doesn't provide happiness. Are you sure you're thinking of the right belief? Sainthood is the one that provides culture/science from foreign follower and faith on GP expenditure.

I realize you will always be at an advantage when your neighbors don't get religion but you do, and I accept that. Randomness is key for creating variety and replayability.

However, especially on maps with different continents, I find the religion situation has too much impact. If you are the only person on your contiennet who gets a relgion its such a good position. This makes aggression a really good strategy, because if I attack my neighbor he is so much less likely to get a relgion.

The way the yields are set up you tend to either get very little or a massive amount of yields. The X yields per city following. For example, council of elders that spreads to 10 cities gets a total of 220 hammers/science.

If you spread to 20 cities, that becomes 840 of each.
If you spread to 30, its 1,860. #

To get 30 cities requires some luck on a standard map, but its very doable. If you play 10 or 12 cities it can happen regularly. So the issue I see if I spread to just myself and a few CS, I'm getting a really bad deal. But if I spread to two neighbors, its impact is absurd. I think the other spreaders are actually much better than CoE (ceremonial burial for 120 culture/faith per great person snowballs in a hilarious way. Just 30 per is a strong effect). I just think tying the reward to the number of cities isn't all that smart. I would support some kind of a cap, like you earn more for more cities but it caps at the 15 city amount, that way its strong but I don't win the game just because I found a continent without religion before the AI did. You already get extra votes and positive relations, you don't need massive yields.

This is for Enhancer beliefs, not Founder beliefs. Why don't you post this in the Founder belief section to get some discussion going?

 

[Txurce]

Sainthood doesn't provide happiness. Are you sure you're thinking of the right belief? Sainthood is the one that provides culture/science from foreign follower and faith on GP expenditure.

You're right - I meant pacifism.

I would support some kind of a cap, like you earn more for more cities but it caps at the 15 city amount, that way its strong but I don't win the game just because I found a continent without religion before the AI did. You already get extra votes and positive relations, you don't need massive yields.

This is a great idea. Carthage for example kills with this, because you get the automatic religion, and a frindly map allows you to cripple or outright kill neighbors with quinqueremes.

 

[CrazyG]

This is for Enhancer beliefs, not Founder beliefs. Why don't you post this in the Founder belief section to get some discussion going?

I'll make a post there too.

There are enhancers that do this too though (Thrift in particular)

 

[Owlbebach]

I never understood/got value from Scripture, and I always thought that Resilience was underwhelming, as a Prophet-based strategy seams ... odd to me.

I found myself taking them quite often. Scripture has great synergy with Holy Law and Diplo play, and Prophet-based strategy - you can take a look at my America game that i posted maybe 2 moths ago or so

 

[Owlbebach]

I still have a hard time seeing how this gives more yields than some of the other options. If I'm Byz I'd rather just take sainthood + glory of god to loop great people. This has got to be worth more yields than resilience + whatever.

I think resilence only works for Tourism play like the game i had. Don't see any reason to take it otherwise, but was quite strong for for Tourism, didn't it?

I think two Enchancers that are problematic now are Clericalism and Evangelism.
Evangelism became a problem after Churches were nerfed, because they were designed for each other
Clericalism is just bad. Even if you need happiness - MUCH better to take Pacifism. And 25% yields is barely noticeable.

 

[ElliotS]

I NEVER use Ritual or Scripture and think they're only useful as a tool to deny opponents resources, mainly used by the AI to annoy me. I'm really not a fan.

That said if people like them and use them, I don't see an issue.

Other than that I think they're good.

I think two Enchancers that are problematic now are Clericalism and Evangelism.
Evangelism became a problem after Churches were nerfed, because they were designed for each other
Clericalism is just bad. Even if you need happiness - MUCH better to take Pacifism. And 25% yields is barely noticeable.

You can get the +1 spread back with Boruto's dad's house, so Evangelism is fine. Maybe better because you have more flexibility in beliefs.
That's funny, I consider Clericalism better than Pacifism. Non-enemy foreign cities is an oxymoron, I don't know why anyone takes it.

Also the 25% yields are better for tall, but for wide it still rocks with maritime city states. Something to consider/focus on.

 

[CrazyG]

I think resilence only works for Tourism play like the game i had. Don't see any reason to take it otherwise, but was quite strong for for Tourism, didn't it?

Yea but so is the glory of god great person loop with sainthood. That is a historic event every 5 turns all game long, and you can pick up writers/artists/musicians to help with themeing bonuses. I don't think two or three extra holy sites matches in tourism, culture, or faith output.

Also, often when picking beliefs you still don't know the whole world. If you pick sainthood/glory of god and find a continent without a religion, congradulations you win. An extra 30 of every yield per great person is enormous.