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Going for Gold: Follower Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 17, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 31, 2018.
  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    33.3%
  1. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I'd like to point out that Cooperation is pretty bad. I took it in my OCC game when i have lots of Flood Plains, Tradition and Polders. It is a unique start, but it is still not that good.

    As a better example i think we can take my Washington's game (https://imgur.com/a/xry8o)
    I founded religion on turn 92 when i had 6 population (almost 7). That is Classical Era.
    On turn 192 my capital is 16 population, so cooperation will be triggered 10 times.
    So city pop in Tradition Capital grows 1 population every 9-10 turns.
    Starting from Medieval it is 10 yields when citizen is born and in Renaissance it is 15.
    So average is 10 and basically it is an average of 1 of every yield per turn. And it is Capital! Other cities grow with lower speed!

    In comparison lats take Pagodas. I understand that you need to build it and spend faith on it, but you get 1 of every yield right away for having only your religion. You are pretty guaranteed to have at least 1 other religion in all your cities, more likely you will have 2.
    Pagodas need faith to build but they give you ~3 times more than Cooperation.

    The only thing is that Ai always overperforms with Cooperation on higher difficulties, but thats a matter of another thread.
     
    Enrico Swagolo likes this.
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Are churches actually useful?
     
  3. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    No

    Maybe (just maybe, i really doubt that) i can see it working with Byz or someone who has lots and lots of faith and can really try to convert someone from one religion to another. I'm not sure how much faith is needed for that, but quite a lot. Something like Holy Law + One World, One Religion + Evangelism/Sainthood/Tithes + Churches + Veneration into Diplo victory..... Might even take Scripture. Almost useless religion that gives you a lot of votes
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Just noting that OCC is literally the worst possible time to take it. Cooperation is very much a wide man's belief. Its power is not in late full grown cities but in being able to take each new city you settle and make them profitable, as their early growth generates a lot of yields.

    Honestly if you thought it was good for a OCC it probably would be horrendously OP in a wide game.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Yea I think cooperation can work out well. Its a late game belief. I've got some serious value with it before using India. I wouldn't take it in a one city challenge.

    Do you even really need churches though? Like with those other beliefs I feel like you would get their anyways.
     
  6. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Well in this case you propaply want as much pressure as you can, they also provide a lot of faith. Also in this case you don't want to give your neighbors strong followers.
    It might be true but why would you take Cooperation when you can just take Pagodas? Okay they need to be purchased, but stil, if you are wide - you have good faith income, it would be like a Pagoda every 6-7 turns
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Because I don't want to spend all my faith on pagodas, I might have only my religion in my cities and cooperation would give you way more anyways? India can have its cities growing like every 3-5 turns after Agribusiness and Rationalism.
    Just take veneration? I guess you sometimes take both? I just don't buy it. I'm not spending 200 faith to get 4 faith per turn, that's dumb.
     
  8. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Well it pays for itself for 50 turns, which is quite good and pressure is nice. Though i agree that Churches is overall the worst follower belief. I have to say that i realy dislike the overall design.
     
  9. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Churches aren't that bad, I like the +2 Culture they have. I get them only if I want a reformation and the enemies obviously have Faith and religions, like this game 3 AIs + me founded on my starting continent. I took it to pierce them with constant pressure while ensuring my cities can get less of their religion to max my Inspiration culture bucks. Probably a mistake since I'm just going to kill them all but whatever, I just want to have Churches in my Poland. They probably need a buff since they are way too niche and even when I took them, I only did it because I wanted to, not because it benefitted me a lot. In general, most religious buildings feel a bit... overpriced, if you ask me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think the real issue here is the potency of the per-follower beliefs versus the cost-benefit of the buildings. Reducing the cap on some of the per-follower beliefs (especially veneration) will help make the buildings stronger by proxy. It's the better play here.

    G
     
  11. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I think churches could go back to granting 50 (or even more) percent religious pressure, so that they'd represent an alternative to Scripture and would then have a prominent role in passive spread of religion.
     
    CrazyG and Owlbebach like this.
  12. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    The problem is Orders or Church or whatever people find underwhelming will not become good after you do so. You will just make religion less appealing as a whole, after it has been already made so by more religions and caps on founders - it's better to put those underwhelming ones up to the level of the others. But yes, in current version yield-per-pop beliefs are better, except for Veneration which is not good in my opinion and Mandir which is always very good.
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the AI that do well with veneration (the leader in my past 4 or so games has had veneration every time) just because that is usually the AI who spreads the most. I don't know if veneration is really the culprit, or if its the beliefs that reward spreading.

    In the three photojournals I recently did, the same 3 beliefs were chosen first by the AI, Churches, Orders and Veneration. I think Veneration is fine, but orders and churches suck (one of those was India taking churches..................)

    Let's look at the buildings side by side with a similar follower.

    Food
    The mandir is usually better. You take food for follower when you have low food. Its also faster, so I'd say these two are even. They each have a roll.

    Culture
    Inspiration is way better than mosques. The AI very rarely takes inspiration in my games which means I take almost every time I found a religion. What makes mosques awkward is that they don't hit bonus yields and they don't earn decimals. Meaning with progress or authority, they earn a lot less than 20% during the mid game (late game it gets better though). However, mosques really aren't bad, and taking both mosques and inspiration is a good strategy. As tradition, I would choose mosques more often if Sankore didn't give one for free.

    Science/Production
    Synagogues are really good. I often want a few more hammers, and the 3 it gives does that. Then late game is a great science steroid. What usually happens is I'm about to pick either diligence or (science for follower), and I take inspiration instead.

    Gold
    Thrift is a belief I like. Its strong early but the cap at 10 really limits it.
    The biggest competition is probably cathedrals, which I find pretty weak but not useless. I build Notre Dame a lot.

    Faith
    One of the powerful things about veneration and other spreading beliefs is that the religion is weak for whoever you spread it to. Veneration is a good belief.
    I suppose churches count for faith? The thing about churches is, how do I use them? Do I build them before missionaries? If you buy 5 churches before you buy missionaries, do you ever recover from that lost initiative? If you buy churches after missionaries, they do nothing. The concept is bad. Its not worth spending what is equivalent to missionary of faith just to upgrade all future missionaries by 5%. You would have to build 20 missionaries for this to start to have a reasonable return, that is so slow. Also, cities often need only 1 action from a missionary to convert. If you have +50% power from missionaries, it still costs you 1 action, you still only convert 2 cities.

    Orders, I just don't think an extra barracks is worth a religious belief. You take this if you want to roleplay a total warmonger. If you want to win, take something else. Nerfing veneration isn't going to make orders stronger compared to synagogues and mosques. They had some merit when they reduced crime.
     
  14. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I too am against lowering the caps for per follower beliefs. Most religious buildings-follower beliefs are competitive with the per follower beliefs, it's just a few that need slight buffing to be competitive as well.
     
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  15. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Also, I think Churches should be adjusted so that they don't offer both a small bonus towards active spread (bonus to missionary strength) and a small bonus towards passive spread, but instead give a big(ger) bonus towards either passive spread or active spread.
     
  16. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Yes, very much yes!
    I'd say that even 2 churches are too much, you already lost a religion game if you do so. They need something right now so that it will justify buying 1 Church and then start missionaris spam (like they did with 3 spreading times)
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Congrats, you've created a new national wonder.

    Your points are valid, but they don't actually contradict my point above - there's no cost for the per-follower beliefs. You get those bonuses from the moment you take the belief, thus there's really no downside. The sunk cost of faith-purchase buildings makes their return (especially on faith-to-faith conversion, for the Church) disappointing. Bringing Veneration down to a +5 cap, for example, makes Churches more appealing as their +5 faith base will pay off more quickly relative to Veneration as it is now. The other bonuses on the building are now the sweetner, not the raw yields alone.

    Bringing follower-based yields down is a good first start, IMO.

    G
     
  18. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Did i?
     
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'd support changing inspiration to cap at 10. It would still be a really good belief.
    I'm still not going to pick churches. What has changed is that I won't ever pick veneration either.
     
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  20. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    The downside is that you don't get needs reduction, you don't get increased religious pressure/resilience, you don't get GW slots, you don't get extra science/culture/... during GA/WLTKD/.... etc.
     
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