Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 17, 2018.
My issue with Churches is that it is trying to do something meant for an enhance belief instead. If I want better conversion power, I'm better looking for Pacifism and Resilience. They provide a stronger effect overall, while reducing my faith expediture with conversions AND adding a side benefit somewhere else.
May I suggest churches to simply provide plain happiness? I miss having a religious building that does it, and I find it fitting with how a religion can help an empire just by keeping the population happier with their lives.
Personally, I only take the yield per follower beliefs if I am not planning to spread my religion. On Immortal and on Deity the AI always have more POPs than you, so they make better use of them. As a religous Civ, I will normally have better Faith, so if I use the buildings, it is harder for them to utilize and doesn't play to the strengths of the AI. The exception is Veneration - if they get more Faith, they can... spread my religion more. If Veneration was capped at +5, I would never, ever use it. It's not useful if I don't spread and it's not useful if I do.
I wouldn't mind the other yield per follower beliefs being capped.
Also, I am convinced 4 Religions is one too many for Small maps. I played a bit more on Standard today and yesterday, and the number of Religions there seems appropriate, but IMO 4 Religions between 6 on Small is just silly. If one is Byzantium there's literally only one non-founder. I think maybe others have not noticed because they play Standard maps far more regularly.
I'll echo many other player's thoughts: Other than the culture one, all of the per-follower beliefs are balanced. Lowering the cap or making it 2 culture per 5 followers seem fair.
The downside of per-follower beliefs is very real. I played a game where I had an allied Ottomans next to me and we both had religions. Since I had 2 follower beliefs and he had a building and a follower he forced me to spend all my faith on inquisitors just to keep my religion. Eventually I was forced to war him instead of bigger threats because I needed stuff to do with my religion, and I eventually lost the game because of all the hassle. I think if I picked up a faith building instead of another per-follower belief I would have won. (It was even culture and hammers, my 2 favorites.)
@ElliotS I always try to pick one building and one Per-Follower belief for exactly that reason. I've seen too many games (both my own and watching other's LPs) where you take two Per-Follower beliefs because of the yields, but then spend all of your Faith in the mid-to-late game constantly buying Inquisitors to keep your cities from swapping to your neighbor's religion due to passive pressure. Even in large warmonger empires your central cities will still be having Religious Division issues because Temples alone are not enough to prevent foreign followers if you don't pick a building belief.
As far as the proposed changes go, I actually agree with G that further nerfing the per-follower beliefs is the right move to make the Faith cost of the buildings more worthwhile, but I still feel that all the buildings aren't fully in tune with each other yet. Mandirs, Cathedrals, Mosques, and Synagogues are still way more attractive to me in most situations than Churches and Orders, and I rarely ever get Pagodas (Songhai with 4UC mod) and Stupas (Brazil/Persia tourism victory) save for very niche scenarios. If Churches boosted WLTKD yields then I could see them being useful for certain Civs, but just giving a 1-time WLTKD trigger is too situational to be useful. I find their current Missionary-boosting bonus to be not worth the cost of buying enough Churches to make use of the bonus. Better to have built the Missionaries first and started the spreading than built the Churches first. Plus, AI India seems to love Churches way too much right now. 3 games in a row I've seen them pick Churches as their first Follower belief. Is there any way to hard-code them to not select beliefs that boost Missionaries, or otherwise dampen their desire for Missionary-spreading based beliefs?
I said this in the religious spread page, but I think there’s an opportunity missed to play around a bit more with religious Defense on the follower buildings:
Religious buildings of religions which don't proselytize could be switched from the 20% resilience/+25% pressure, and made to be +30% resilience/+15% pressure. eg. Synagogue and Mandir.
Cathedral: 25% pressure/20% resilience
Church: 40% pressure/10% resilience
Mandir: 25% pressure/20% resilience --> 20% pressure/25% resilience
Mosque: 25% pressure/10% resilience
Order: 25% pressure/10% resilience —> 15% pressure / 20% resilience
Pagoda: 0% pressure/0% resilience
Stupa: 25% pressure/10% resilience
Synagogue: 25% pressure/10% resilience --> 5% pressure/30% resilience
So make synagogues the religious Defense building, like how churches are the religious offense building.
Mandirs already have considerable pressure/resilience, but considering its the same as Christian cathedrals, a religion that proselytizes, I think it could stand to be shifted to favour resilience slightly. Maybe only 20/25, flipped the other way.
Orders come from Christianity, again, but I think of orders within the context of the Crusader states and afterwards; a Christianity under siege from Islam. I think a bit more resilience is fitting for them. The pressure also has its place, thanks to the work by orders like the Teutonic order, who converted (genocided) the Baltic pagans.
I'm lost with current church iteration. Does it still add strength to missionaries? If so, then I see the point of building churches, letting other civs do their spreading, then assault them with my buffed missionaries that will get extra yields (science or tourism) for spreading to a foreign religion (there are a couple of enhancers or founders that do that, aren't there?). There is other that turns missionaries into little great prophets, eroding existing religion. My missionaries might arrive late to the game, but they will get more yields for their spreading actions.
If churches also give more pressure, this means that I don't have to spend my missionaries converting my own cities.
In all, it seems it is a building designed for late founders.
We probably didn't comment on cooperation, or any food related follower belief, due to the recent changes to food (more consumption from specialists, extra food in fresh water farms, harder farm clusters, overall less food). Since they looks like they are here to stay, we could comment again, all those per birth bonuses that seems to work well for the AI, while not so well for the hummies. Or maybe consider them in the 'removing AI Growth handicap' thread?
Looking at balance of per-follower beliefs. I've reworked the table so that I can do percentages for each yield based on pop. Right now I have it at:
Gold: 1 per 2, 20 cap
Food: 1 per 2, 20 cap
Science: 1 per 3, 15 cap
Faith: 1 per 4, 10 cap
Culture: 1 per 4, 10 cap
Production: 1 per 2, 15 cap
How does this look?
I will literally only take production.
Gold is really needed fast. 1 per 1 with a lower cap is what people need from it, going slower and higher cap means no one wants it.
Food wasn't good at 1 per 1 cap 10. It was very niche.
Science is probably too slow. Certainly worse than production, but if you nerf production I'll probably just skip both.
Faith is garbage. Faith needs to be fast to be worth it. 1 per 4 is disgraceful. 2 per 3 cap 10 seems fine if you need to slow it down.
Culture is garbage. A good yield made too scarce to pick. Also massively AI-favored on default Deity.
Production is production. The cap hurts AIs more than players.
For the slot, don't forget it's comparing to the follower buildings, not just itself.
The main advantage of Gold over Production is short term value. In the long-run, Production is always more efficient, but in the short-term, Gold can be used to rush buildings/units and fund mass upgrades in a way Production can't.
So Gold could stay at 1 per 2 if Production was moved to 1 per 3. Gold's value should be relative to Production.
Faith should be 1 per 3 with a 15 cap probably. 1 per 4 seems too low to me.
1 per 4 seems to much. I think 1 per 3 for culture with is okay. And lower cap (though cap in case of 1 per 3 is not needed at all, cause you'll never get 30 followers)
First unless you remove the growth bonus there will always be a gap between Ai performance and players' point of view with "per follower" bonus.
That being said, gold was fine -> with those changes, it's worse for human and low difficulty AI.
food and science were already niche -> at this point, I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish, is it homogenization ? because I couldn't see one valid point to nerf those two.
faith and culture was strong but the reduction is too big
I think I 'm only fine with the change to Diligence.
I find this rework to be pretty bad. I also would only take Diligence, the rest are so weak they're unpickable. Why would I ever take Faith or Culture when Churches exist? Sure, I have to spend Faith, but I will get it back, I will get as much Culture as a city with 8-11 Inspired followers and Faith of 16-19 followers, pressure that will make me spend less to convert others and force them to spend more if they want to keep theirs. Not even pop, but followers of your religion, so if you're fighting against a religion of anyone (someone who took something that adds +pressure... like a building), you need constant Faith spending or you lose out on yields. The same applies to them all except the still useful Diligence. I am already not ever taking Food, Veneration or Thrift so after that rework they'll be worthless trash that only AI take, completely obsoleted by the superior choices like Cathedral, Mandir, Church, Order, etc. that might cost, but have more than enough effects compensating for what you pay and will sooner or later more than pay back. Some might argue early gain is better than that you get later, but in this case what you get early is so miniscule, actual benefit in pressuring, keeping, reforming your religion is worth much more, especially with vastly superior yields.
What even is the point of caps with these values? They're just text. Diligence is up to 30 followers, others to 40/45 followers. The only thing that will be affected are some very late Tradition capitals, maybe India and Madrid if Isabella manages to conquer more than one continent.
What is causing such a sudden, large change? Are these followers way overperforming relative to the buildings for the AI? I'm being say inspiration is too good for a while, but cutting it in half is too much. The others are just okay, and they get cut in half too?
I have a honest question, is there anyone still taking Veneration after that last nerf (which made it 1 for 2, 8 cap)? Even at 1 for 2, 15 cap I saw people arguing it wasn't worth picking, so is there anyone who likes this one with the current values? I sincerely thought it would get a sizeable BUFF, not nerf.
Gazebo, is your decision to nerf follower beliefs so hard because AI taking them is doing very well? If so, I think there's one tiny factor that makes this whole thing irrelevant. The vast majority that I play AI first picks a yields per follower pantheon, so any observations you'd take from their performance would be inconclusive and extremely unreliable at best. I see them go with a building first very rarely (usually Orders/Synagogue/Church/Cathedral) and most of the time I see all the buildings are available if I found last which means everyone took yields for followers.Those who found first can spread religion with their missionaries much earlier and have a safe spot, and they mostly take yields. Would the outcomes be the same if it was switched and the AI preferred buildings over followers?
I don't think there could possibly be another explanation to nerfing something players were complaining was too weak (Veneration) even before it's nerf from 1/2, cap 15 to 1/2, cap 8 but the AI, and now it's going to be cut in half, so pretty much absolutely useless. Wouldn't it be better to just have some things maybe be much better for the AI than the alternatives like it was, but still pickable by the players? You're just creating traps for newcomers by creating stuff that is not designed to be good for them and is actively harmful if they take it, because it's meant to only be okay in hands of an AI with much more population. I consider current Veneration awful as well and I never took it. I'd rather just take Churches or a building so the AI suffers and I benefit.
I'm not. That exactly why I said only production would have any worth whatsoever.
The fact that your testing is giving you something entirely antithetical to what every player experiences means something is up. I don't think you're testing with AI's getting discounted citizens because of how much that skews the results, but the AI might just be bad at using buildings.
I can think of a lot of theories on why these over-perform for you, but you're actively making the game less balanced by changing these values. I don't say this lightly, but both I and seemingly every other player across every skill level agree that the only one that merited any concern was inspiration.
Even then I would have only considered it like 10-15% too strong, because I do skip it pretty often in favor of science, production or gold. (Which I think are well balanced at 1 per 2, 1 per 2, and 1 per 1.)
Your veneration nerfs have make it absolute trash that I wouldn't consider taking in any strategy ever. I'm somebody that loves to look at seemingly weak choices and figure out how to make them work, but even I think that it's beyond garbage.
I'd suggest trying to find what's causing the difference in results (I think it's the fact that Humans are better at religion) but listening to players here. You see how passionately we disagree on basically everything. When once in a blue moon everyone agrees I think the message is very clear: The players are right.
I will agree as well. Culture and maaayyyyyyybe production (to like just a tiny bit) were strong, I never considered any of the others to be OP, and some I struggle to justify.
I also like the notes about early game and late game yields, and how some can scale quicker but cap faster. I think that's a good way to create a good difference between gold and production.
Agreed with others, I strongly dislike this proposal.
Inspiration is the only per-follower belief I take with regularity now and only because culture is such a powerful yield.
It's seems tough to make the per-followers enticing early while ensuring they are not too strong late without steep scaling and limit caps. Would the per-follower beliefs be improved with a static yield component (assuming it's possible in the code)? If per-follower beliefs granted immediate yields in each city (1 is probably enough for all, maybe 2 for the weakest yields) then more aggressive scalers are easier to digest. Might even be able to get rid of the cap to clean up the text.
Because 12 population seems an awfully high bar for 3 faith or culture when I can get 5 or more yields plus religious pressure and an additional effect from a building, independent of city size.
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