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Going for Gold: Follower Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 17, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 31, 2018.
  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    33.3%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Stupas: Its time to do something about this building. Its garbage.

    Pagodas: So in general I find when your going pagadas on Standard its reasonable to get 3 religions. 4 is a real corner case in my experience.

    So pagodas gives +3 food, prod, science, culture, faith, -1 boredom, but none of the religious boosters that the other buildings get. I don't know, they are decent yields but I think the synagogue and mosque are way better than this, and pagodas tend to attract more religious division than the building stamps out.
     
  2. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    I think Pagodas would make sense to eliminate religious diversion, since you end up taking so much unhappiness from it. Or at least, have a far more significant reduction, maybe scaling based on pop. Make it an option for players who found a religion late and are unlikely to be able to do anything but accept other player's religions, which is a case where religion can't really get abused well anyway. A couple of yields and the same lack of unhappiness any other religion gets would somewhat make up for not getting the normal bonuses from spreading.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think giving a Stupa +1 raw happiness would give it a niche. Also, I'm going to reduce Mosque/Synagogue % bonuses by 5% each.

    G
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't usually have happiness problems playing a tourism game, so adding happiness to the stupa isn't making me reconsider.
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Don’t forget there’s also some new code goodies that VP can play with, like yields on faith purchase. We also added unitclasses to missionaries and inquisitors, so stupas could give a unique promotion or something. Seems flavourful since the King Stupa, Borobudur, gives a 3rd spread
     
  6. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    It would definitely make sacred sites spam strategy more viable. But it's still very niche
     
  7. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Unfortunately, the 5 :tourism: isn't worth the Yields coming in Mid-Renaissance. Maybe, that is all that is holding the Stupas, back? Or, perhaps I would rather have raw Yields elsewhere, say :c5science:, :c5gold:, or :c5culture:.

    Having Yields per Followers has a poor synergy with Pagodas; another reason to avoid Pagodas.
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    A bit of new code, but it could be interesting:

    What if Stupas gave flat, instant yields on unit purchase, with gold, Faith or both? Maybe it could give :c5gold: when you purchase with faith and :c5faith: faith when you purchase with gold?

    Stupas could have a place in a missionary spamming religion as a semi-reliable gold source, as a good zealotry compliment. It could also be a niche authority pickup for mercenaries, a nice yield boost when spamming diplomats or military unit purchases, if you’re willing to eat the XP penalty.

    I would worry about Borobudur causing an issue though, since you could funnel all unit purchases through a single city. Maybe if it was a small, flat amount like 3-5, scaling with era, in every city with a stupa when you purchase a unit on empire?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  9. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    What if stupas give a flat bonus for each kind of allied city state?. Like +2 food for each maritime allied city state, +2 culture for each culture city state, etc.
     
  10. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    I feel like yields-per-follower beliefs are in a bad spot right now. Growth has been gutted while unhappiness has gone up, making the unhappiness reduction from religious buildings much more attractive. You can reliably get similar yields from buildings plus the happiness bonus
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Maybe stupas could use the hotel’s %25 :c5culture: to :tourism: conversion from wonders/terrain, if people wanted to keep stupa as the :tourism: faith building. Seems no one likes the flat:tourism:
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I do like the idea of bonus per cs ally as a religious building bonus.
     
  13. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    What if the Stupa had something like: +25% of :tourism: in a city converted to :c5science:, :c5gold: and :c5goldenage: (or some other combo/ratio of yields)? Remove the flat :c5goldenage:/:tourism: and +1:c5happy:. I think having it reward :tourism: rather than just give a flat poorly scaling +5:tourism:would be better.
     
  14. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    We can even give half of the bonus per cs friend.

    Like +1 food per friend maritime city state, +2 food per allied maritime city state, etc.
     
  15. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    I like both ideas, maybe something like this:
    or on the statecraft side:
    Or
     
  16. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    Is flat tourism still bad if we rebalance tourism instant yields to something like 1 turn of culture yield + 4 turns of tourism yield?
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Would still love to see a bump to the Stupa. That said, one fringe benefit is....you are pretty much guaranteed to win any tourism quest for CS until the late game. ITs not much but its something.
     
    JamesNinelives and Bromar1 like this.
  18. AndreyK

    AndreyK Warlord

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    I don't really understand why culture you get per 3 followers is capped at 6 and science per 2 is capped at 15?
    I had a game were China took science, and shot like crazy. I played large, immortal, China was already one of leaders in science, had 10 cities and 160 pop, so it gave about 70 science, while I was 5th in techs and generated about 170 science total with 9 cities. It was in Medieval, then China had a war with Germany and took 4 of his cities and led the world with 2 techs more then anybody by entering Renaissance.
    Then China was discovering 2 techs for 1 discovered by me, and I was third, so by Industrial the techs gap was at least 10 and China kept grabbing Wonders and cities, was also culture and world absolute leader in everything.
    I think science per follower are too strong, I usually don't take it, because then game almost always over (in Immortal).
    I think the cap must be lowered to 10 at the very least
     
    phantomaxl1207 and LifeOfBrian like this.
  19. Drakle

    Drakle King

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    I think follower beliefs in general need a bit of a reexamination. Everybody has complained about Stupas, forever, but nothing has actually be done to make them better.

    As for Scholarship. I haven't actually used it in a long while, so I can't really comment on its balance. On the surface, I think making it the same as Inspiration would be too much of a nerf. A 10 cap like suggested above with Thrift, I don't know. It seems a bit more reasonable, but I feel it would push me to Synagogues more if I can somewhat reliably get WLTKD.

    I don't think the raw yield beliefs should be too nerfed. At the moment, I keep leaning towards religious buildings, because they offer a variety of yields, an extra bonus, pressure, and more direct happiness management.

    Generally, I'd like it if all the raw yield beliefs, became two-part beliefs, like Inspiration. It makes it easier to balance the different raw yields, without giving them all different caps. Even now with the differing caps, some still feel a bit off. I'd in most situations still rather have say 1 production vs 2 food, and in the end in the capital, and some core cities, you can hit the cap with both Asceticism and Diligence, so it is a more direct 15 production vs 15 food which is a very clear choice. And as mentioned above, at the moment when my civ needs food, I tend to lean towards Mandirs. While with Diligence, there is no real equivalent production religious building. Synagogues have some flat production but equal out at only 6 population. And since I at least tend to hold off on most religious buildings til enhancing, most of my core cities are well past that point.

    Of these, I say Diligence needs the smallest secondary effect, while Asceticism needs the largest secondary effect. I'm not sure about Scholarship and Thrift.

    Also, what are peoples thoughts on Veneration? I've only used it once as Authority Byzantium, and I feel it works very well with Hero Worship, Theocratic Rule, Orders, Zealatory. But that is a lot of raw faith production that is on the high end of what is capable or to be expected for the common use of a belief. The rest of the belief is only 4 base yields, which is quite low.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
    LifeOfBrian likes this.
  20. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    The current religious pressure from churches is crazy large. It quickly rivals India's UA in terms of pressure. Needs to be brought down to realistic levels.

    Over all I find the straight yeild beliefs sort of weak compared to the other options. If you decide to forgo buildings you spend the rest of the game fighting off religious pressure that at some point becomes a losing battle. Only time I might pass the buildings is with Celts or maybe Spain.
     

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