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Going for Gold: Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

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Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

    The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

    Important Notes:

    1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
    2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
    3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
    4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
     
  2. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I think Founder beliefs are just about there, but that Way of the Pilgrim is lacking comparison to the others. The "World Wonders require 1 less unlocked Policy per every 8 Cities following your Religion" component is just about worthless. I can't remember the last time I ever failed to meet the policy requirement for a Wonder outside of the Ancient era. Maybe the policy # requirement for wonders needs another look?
     
    Mauro Mezzina and ElliotS like this.
  3. Vortok

    Vortok Chieftain

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    I managed it in my latest game. Focused on science with Babylon + didn't get anything that'd significantly boost culture until Corporations. Teched faster than my culture could keep up, but I feel that it was more due to poor culture in that game (was specifically stacking stuff related to city attack damage) than it was because of faster teching.

    Still, I'd say that anecdote is pretty fringe. Also, Way of the Pilgrim already helps with Culture, so it seems strange to have the policy reduction tied to a Founder belief that is less likely to need it (if regularly spreading). I suppose if you manage to found, but also have poor faith generation? Backup plan in that case, I suppose, but still a bit fringe as well.
     
  4. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I never take Theocratic/Divine. I somehow have a feeling even if the bonus was working all the time, they'd still have trouble competing with every other one, so I see no point.
     
  5. Bascule2000

    Bascule2000 Warlord

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    Neglect culture, or over-expand and it's easy to reach the tech for wonders without the culture. I often see it with the early renaissance wonders, eg Himeji Castle. Take Council of Elders and you should certainly see it. Maybe the lowering of policy requirements could be put in Council of Elders? It's an awkward belief to play - I did it once but haven't again, because of the inability to build wonders I had the tech for, and the detrimental effect of the tech on my unit cap.
     
  6. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    That is both belief that I pick the most. Playing tall-divine. Playing wide- theocratic. This is the only 2 belief that dont scale/depend on city number or spreading.(since I play deity, thanks god if your own city is not converted to other religion)

    Ceremonial burial is also one of my favorite belief(although it is nerf now, it scales with city followers).
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I really like council of elders. The production and science can help you research theology and build the Hagia Sophia quickly, enabling you to enhance quickly while still spreading quickly.

    Its rare for me to have to wait to build a wonder after I already have a religion.
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Hey guys, I've posted about this in the enhancer thread. Copying some of the text-

    The way the yields are set up you tend to either get very little or a massive amount of yields. The X yields per city following. For example, council of elders that spreads to 10 cities gets a total of 220 hammers/science.

    If you spread to 20 cities, that becomes 840 of each.
    If you spread to 30, its 1,860. #

    To get 30 cities requires some luck on a standard map, but its very doable. If you play 10 or 12 cities it can happen regularly. So the issue I see if I spread to just myself and a few CS, I'm getting a really bad deal. But if I spread to two neighbors, its impact is absurd. I think the other spreaders are actually much better than CoE (ceremonial burial for 120 culture/faith per great person snowballs in a hilarious way. Just 30 per is a strong effect). I just think tying the reward to the number of cities isn't all that smart. I would support some kind of a cap, like you earn more for more cities but it caps at the 15 city amount, that way its strong but I don't win the game just because I found a continent without religion before the AI did. You already get extra votes and positive relations, you don't need massive yields.
     
  9. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    This has to be the biggest disagreement between myself and many other high-level players. I personally think Council of Elders is the worst stinker in the game by far. The yields are so low they feel meaningless. I feel like added up you save 1 turn getting to and maybe 1 turn on building the Haglia Sofia.

    I'm not asking for a change, just putting it out there.

    As for my thoughts: Way of the Pilgrim seems to be the only one that needs a tweak. The policy component is really useless and misplaced. I'd like to see +15% :tourism: to civs that do NOT follow your majority religion. That would further cement it's role as a spreader founder that doesn't really want to succeed.
     
    Owlbebach likes this.
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    1 turn is a pretty big deal. If you spread a lot its a tech and a wonder, that is all I need from my enhancer. Also its relevant early.

    So here is the thing...................As many games as I've played I haven't used the different enhancers all that much. I believe people when they say they've tried the other options and they are better, but I keep winning with this one. I just think that spreading your religion too wide is really strong with any of them, I would really like to see it capped. If we put on a cap on, we can up the values on elders a bit.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 and ElliotS like this.
  11. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I've used most of the Founders at this point and as much fun as it is to be getting those injections of science and production in the Classical/Medieval eras with Council of Elders (assuming you enhance ASAP with lots of early faith generation), it essentially becomes useless once you've maxed out your capability to spread your religion. The best case scenario would be in a Domination victory where you are converting enemy cities as you conquer them, but the production and science doesn't scale with era, so post-Renaissance the yields are puny even if you have 30+ cities following your religion. So it's great in the early/mid game and very weak in the late game. Apostolic Tradition, Way of the Pilgrim, and the rest give yields all game long because you can take advantage of the pressure of other religions to maximize spreading yields. And of course Holy Law, Theocratic Rule, Divine Inheritance, and Way of Transcendence keep giving yields all game long.
     
  12. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I agree about CoE with some by the way, it's pretty awful. Probably the worst of them all. Why get 1 turn off building Alhambra when you can get to medieval with Chivalry and get an (almost/totally) free Alhambra with WoT?
     
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  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I don't know what the balance on it is, per se, but Way of Transcendence is probably the most fun of all the founders. That big yields bath, equals at least 1 free tech and a free wonder on era, it just feels so good.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Since Founders are the primary scalers of the bunch, I'll post this here:

    I've got the code in place to make it so that the beliefs that scale with the number of following cities caps at 30, and beliefs that scale with the num of followers caps at 250. I think this feels fair, however the code supports unique values per belief, so fire away if you think Council of Elders should have a higher/lower cap than Way of Transcendence, for example.

    G
     
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  15. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Won't that make it even harder to ball out of control on bigger maps and pretty much non-existent on anything below standard size? Maybe the amount should scale by map.
     
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  16. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Council of Elders seems so snowball oriented.

    Normally if you go from 20 cities to 30 cities, with other beliefs the amount of bonus yields scales linearly, but with Council of Elders, it scales exponentially.

    With the cap on Council of Elders due to the proposed changes I think it would lose the main luster it currently has, which is in super huge maps and conquest games where you can convert tons of cities throughout the game. I think CoE should be reworked in such a way to scale linearly like other Founder beliefs.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    That's the goal (harder to 'ball out,' non-existence elsewhere), really - the goal isn't per-mapsize specificity, but rather controlling upper limits for yields from a belief period. If the religion spread in the game is fairly even, you won't notice the cap - if it isn't even (i.e. @CrazyG's 'lost continent' example), then you'll hit it.

    That's the draw of CoE, though - high value with commitment. The key is simply limiting that exponent.
     
  18. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    High value with commitment describes Apostolic Tradition/Way of the Pilgrim, imo. I'd prefer if it were like that instead.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Can't be like that, as they use different methods of calculating value (and different systems entirely aside from the value formula). It's not really a problem if we get the max cap right.

    G
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Very cool.

    I think the numbers will need tuning though.
     

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