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Going for Gold: Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    20 Cities/200 Followers? Each belief can have their own (though, to note, if two beliefs have the same cap type and your religion has both, it uses the larger of the two).

    G
     
  2. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Couldn't you use the same code as, say, Apostolic Tradition and just replace Food/GAP with Science and Production? Maybe tune the numbers a bit?

    My issue with CoE is that it's literally designed like this: if you spread your religion to, say, 30 Cities, this belief is awesome. If you get 20 cities, this belief is horrible. I don't think such an all or nothing nature is either player or AI friendly, Holy Law/Way of Transcendence tend to be more consistent with linear scaling and that's why I (and I think some other players) prefer them.

    Though I'm curious as to what yours and other people's thoughts on this belief are. I don't mind a snowballing belief, but this one is just so drastically all or nothing that I personally dislike it.
     
  3. neo_arcadia

    neo_arcadia Warlord

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    Speaking on my experience, I personally chose Council of Elders most of the times when playing as Byzantium. I think the belief is fine. Converting the whole neighbor takes time and in my every game, makes them angry. That's the trade-off and so far I only successfully gain its huge benefits when playing Byz. Regarding drop-off, you will feel it when playing in marathon or epic just because the cost of everything goes up.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    TBH I don't see the logic - in what way is science and production in your capital horrible at any stage? Are you talking about the cost of commitment?

    G
     
  5. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    I meant in terms of total yields it doesn't even compare to, say, Way of Transcendence unless it spreads to a very high amount of cities.

    I'm just looking for a belief that's more consistent in value. According to CrazyG, spreading to 20 cities produces a total of 840 production/science. That's badly outclassed by Holy Law/WoT over the game. But if you spread to 30 cities, you yield more than double that, enough to make it more competitive. It's based on spreading your religion around the world, but unlike Apostolic Tradition/Way of the Pilgrim, it doesn't give a steady stream of yields based on your commitment. It feels like it's almost got a bar of entry "must spread to this many cities to be able to compete". If you get 10 cities short, it's just so much worse because of the exponential scaling. Holy Law/WoT/Ceremonial Burial are relatively more consistent in value whether you get 20 cities or 30 cities. But not CoE.

    I also think it would be more AI-friendly if it was reworked to be more consistent (of course, you're a lot better at judging what's AI-friendly and not, but still, hear me out. If what I'm saying is blatantly wrong please correct me). The way it is now, the AI can only benefit from this belief long-term if it confidently knows it can spread to a very high amount of cities. Otherwise, it's probably better off picking another founder like Holy Law. The AI will either ball with this belief, or it will fall off hard for them, and as far as I know the AI can't always judge how many cities it will spread to, so it will make the decision based off it's need for science, and only sometimes will it be able to really compete with Holy Law/WoT which provide more consistent yield streams, if it manages to spread beyond a certain threshold. It's feast/famine. If this belief provided science/production based on the number of new followers it converted with each spread, it would be much easier to gauge and control how many yields it's going to get and the difference between spreading to 20 or 30 cities will not be as drastic. I think removing overly all or nothing beliefs is good for the balance of the game and follows the theme you seem to be setting with the caps on religious founder beliefs.

    Sorry for the wall of text.
     
  6. pza

    pza Prince

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    i really agree on on this one, except i think its abit op, as the bonus is huge for every yield. It's too good if you're lucky with your neighbors. Since the change "1 more religion per map size" it got more rare, but its still crazy when it works.
     
  7. neo_arcadia

    neo_arcadia Warlord

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    Wanted to add another stuff. What I like about Council of Elders is that it gives you local-specific yield (production) and national-specific yield (science), with reasonable way to utilize its effect in a quite noticeable way (just looking at number of cities, instead per follower. The production helps when building wonder after wonder. This is some benefit you can get from CoE. Way of Transcendence gives you HUGE amount of yields in like, small occasion; it's a spike in terms of average value. Both have different usage. CoE does not need to be equal with WoT because it can't be equal. For me, I compare science to science or food to food. Comparing two total number of yield is not the only way to look for its usefulness. A different case is present in Holy Law, giving three national-yield in another form of trigger. With CoE it triggers when a city got converted. Holy Law, when a social policy unlocked, WoT when you enter new era.
     
  8. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    I'm not asking that the yield type be changed or that the trigger be changed (converting cities). I'm just asking to make it more consistent in value, in that if you spread to 10 cities instead of 30, you get 1/3 of the value of 30 cities, not like it is now where you get roughly 1/6 of the value of spreading to 30 cities.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think I understand. Right now the system is a flat multiplier (yield bonus * num of cities). I could switch it to become.

    This would mean that you'd be getting a % increase of the yield with each conversion, with the % increasing exponentially.

    Existing:

    10 science/production & 6 cities = 60 yield
    10 science/production & 30 cities = 300

    New:

    10 science/production & 6 cities = 13.6 yield
    10 science/production & 30 cities = 100 yield

    Obviously the yields are lower, but we could increase the base value (50/50 would probably suffice):

    50 science/production & 6 cities = 68 yield
    50 science/production & 30 cities = 500 yield

    You'd be getting more overall, but it'd be a bit more even (and it could start at a higher value without being as risky.

    Not sure if that makes sense, or if it's what you're asking for.

    G
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I remember that you made up the scalers because early adopters had such an advantage. Now, early adopters that manage to spread have such advantage...

    I dislike flat caps as a rule. I don't dislike caps per se, but having a fixed arbitrary limit is what I find disturbing.

    Can't you make it so every new converted city is a gain, but every time the yields get lower?
    Example. Apostolic Tradition. 10 food and Gap for first converted city. 19 food and GAP for second. 28 for third, so on until it gives 100 for every new city from the 10th converted city. OK, it stops growing once an arbitrary number of cities, but the cap is less evident.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Congrats, you reinvented the cap. :)

    In all seriousness, the issue with that is that it is not very intuitive.

    G
     
  12. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Okay, so do I have this right: (100 + (6 cities)^2)/2=68, +50 prod/science=118 prod/science
    and (100+(30cities)^2)/2=500, +50 prod/science=550 prod/science

    and say, (100+(10cities)^2)/2=100, +50 prod/science=150 prod/science

    If these were the total yield numbers you'd get from spreading that you're referring, then I'd like this (though I'd probably add a multiplier on all these numbers at the end, because a grand total of 550 prod/science from spreading to 30 cities over the course of the game is kind of low), since 550/118 equals roughly 5, which is proportionate to 30/6, which is kind of what I'm aiming for.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Essentially, yes, you are correct. The easiest way to scale this would of course be era scaling.

    G
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    So, what do we want religion founder benefits to behave?

    Getting better with eras? Getting better by spreading? Being useful even when not spreading? I think we had that.

    Maybe there's no need to reinvent the wheel. If the only problem is that beliefs that scale on number of converted cities/population can get out of control, reduce their scaling yields somehow. The cap was an idea. My other suggestion of a dissimulated cap was another (not good, admitedly). What about a distance penalty? Reduced yields based on quadratic distance to Holy City.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    What I did above fixes this by smoothing the gain and capping the max. That's all it needs.

    G
     
    Txurce likes this.
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Capping the max means that every following converted city will gain the max value, isn't it? Yes, simple, might work. Still feels artificial, but alas.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Lots of things in the game have caps, though.
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I know.
    I like military unit cap. You can do something about it, you can increase it with some actions, and reduce it if you do nothing.
    But I dislike happiness cap, why -10 to 20, why not 0 to 30 (this way people would stop complaining about unhappiness)? Follower belief caps, why it stops giving yields after 10 or 20 pop? It's like being invited to a party that ends at 20:30, with no chance to make it last longer.

    I understand why you use it, though. It's easier to do and works. Just wanted to share my opinion, for what it's worth.
     
  19. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Another possible idea: instead of making the cap (or maybe with it) we may introduce some constant number to Founders. I.e. Coincil of Elders = 50 science and production base + 10 of each per city.
    I think it will be really cool because it will be easier to balance and also possible to make "early-game" and "late-game" religions
     
  20. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Isn't that a bit much of a change? I've personally felt religion has been mostly in a good place; the idea for these threads now are tweaking and tuning to get things from 95% to 100%. 'Late game' and 'early game' religions like that would be a change of the religion dynamic as a whole, wouldn't it?
     

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