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Going for Gold: Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    They are actually not meant for that. Its meant to go "ok everything is within 90% of each other.....alright lets freeze those settings". We will never get to 100%, heck I think 95% is unrealistic. But....so far hasn't worked out that way:)
     
  2. ridjack

    ridjack Chieftain

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    Right, same idea. :)

    In more general regards to the thread, founder beliefs have always been the most difficult ones for me, personally, to get a handle on. Even after reading a lot of other folks' ideas on how to use them, I still don't think I have a good grasp on when each one is useful or appropriate. I think it's a combination of them being the most 'complex' beliefs with the most total mechanics and the fact that they become available at a time when I frequently don't have a firm victory condition locked down. (I often don't settle on my final victory type until halfway through the game or more.) I end up just attempting to synergize with my concept of my civ's strengths, and usually not doing all that well about it.
     
    hr_oskar likes this.
  3. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    This dynamic already exists, what i propose will make it more easy to control and adjust (WLTKD founder is crappy earlygame and by far the strongest one lategame, and Apostolic is cool earlygame and absolutely useless lategame)
    This seems like big change but it is actually not that big because it will be easy to balance. The biggest problem with balancing is that you balance something in one place and it becomes broken in another place. This is the way to avoid it.
     
  4. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    Exactly how I feel about founders. I keep looking up what they do and still don't have a clue what would be best and when.

    Not saying anything should be done about that though.
     
    ridjack likes this.
  5. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    So here's a question: how does Apostolic Tradition stack up against Divine Inheritance? By the question I mean to ask that if you're able to develop missionaries meaningfully and use Apostolic Tradition, would not the extra population easily encompass bonus yields of more than 15% of everything? It at least seems like a possibility.

    Divine Inheritance seems like the choice you take when everything else has been picked and you're a one-city empire and don't expect that you'll successfully be able to convert another city ever.
     
  6. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    God king and divine inheritance seems pretty legit. Also divine inheritance requires no real effort whereas you need to spread over and over for AT to work. If you want to spend your faith on something else Divine Inheritance can work better.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I think Divine Inheritance has a role. There are times when I expect to spread basically nowhere. For a tradition capital, you are getting more from 15% than a few extra population.

    I thought it was fine at 20% though, didn't understand the nerf.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 and ElliotS like this.
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Yeah I remember doing the math and it was buffed to 15%, but it really should be 20. It's niche is slightly too small right now IMO.
     
    Owlbebach, CrazyG and LukaSlovenia29 like this.
  9. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    I'll agree with both of you on this.
     
  10. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I picked Hero Worship to remember why I stopped picking it despite always being a warmongering menace to the world, and I realised why. It's just bad. ~120 :c5goldenage::c5faith: on Epic for a 7 or 8 pop city is just not cutting it. If I conquer my entire continent I will have around 2000-3000 Faith and GAP from it. Why would I ever pick this over Transcendence or Holy Law or Council of Elders which will give me thousands per policy/era change/conversion, also of better yields? Even after scaling it's still going to not be worth much. Let's assume it'll be that 240 GAP/Faith in medieval, 360 in renaissance. It's not good. Worst founder belief I'd say, nerfed by general gameplay changes (AI cities have less pop, general warmongering nerfs) and requiring effort while the reward it gives is below average. It's only true pluses are the Holy Site bonus and Military Production, but the military production is IIRC only for the city it's in.

    Suggestion - increase the yields slightly, give some whenever a city owned by you is converted to your religion. Not applying to other civ's cities, so it's a bit different to Council of Elders which will have a big edge if you convert others.
     
    TheBigFundamental and ElliotS like this.
  11. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    That or improve the yield types. Golden age points are so crap. Gimme some gold at least.
     
    TheBigFundamental likes this.
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  13. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Wait. I think it doesn't even scale with population anymore, for me (EPIC speed) it seems like every conquest I checked was, regardless of populace,

    • 120 classical
    • 240 medieval
    • 360 renaissance

    That means it's 80/160/240 on regular speed per city. Not even conquering a 40 pop Gandhi city (which doesn't really exist anymore) would do anything to make it bearable.
     
  14. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    re: Hero Worship
    My suggestions are 15% prod for military in holy city -> 15% (maybe 10%) prod for military in all cities and add gold on city conquest. Will make the belief more in line with others
     
  15. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    Or add gold to the instant yields from city capture. There are just not enough yields on this belief to choose it over something else
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    The current hero worship is very, very bad and I feel like Council of Elders is better than the other spread-dependent options.
     
    Minh Le likes this.
  17. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    Herp Worship is a very weird belief, compare to authority policy which give Science/culture on city capture and Crusader Spirit which give Culture and Gold, Hero Worship is very bad. Problem is it has little synergy with a warmonger kit which doesnt play around golden age (except Persia). Maybe it can give faith and gold so it can be synergy with Zealotry?
     
    Gothic_Empire likes this.
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    And Macedonia. It works great for them. Otherwise yeah, GAPs are an awkward yield for most warmongers, and they’d probably just rather go for one of the other founders. Since crusader spirit is a belief that basically does the exact same thing as herp worship (but with better yields), I think it would be fair to either make the capture reward minimal and emphasize a more consistent bonus (eg more supply/more unit prod/a bonus to generals/admirals), or tilt to a different instant yield source.

    Like, what if GG and GAdm birth/expend gave the faith boost instead, and GGs/GAs generated a flat 5:c5faith:/:c5culture: on empire every turn? GGs/GAdms are like your ‘herp-iest’ units in civ, or as close as we get.

    EDIT: or split the difference maybe? Conquering cities yields :c5capital:GG and GA points based on the :c5citizen:population of the city. Birth/Expend GGs and GAs provides :c5faith: and :c5goldenage: GA points, based on number of Cities following your religion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    Minh Le likes this.
  19. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    Hey getting GG/GA point on city capture is actually very cool. I like that.
    We can have some unique strategies like Japan with hero worship and conquer for Culture victory :lol:
     
  20. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    I would vote for a rework of Hero Worship, i do not remember the last time i took it and i think the design itself is not great. IMO better to have something that is not dependent of capturing cities
     
    Bromar1 likes this.

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