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Going for Gold: Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    In AI tests, civs that capture cities manage to do better. So, picking this belief and going on a conquering spree will show good performance, but maybe most of it is due to the AI doing well in the military campaign than to the belief itself. Increasing its effect could cause runaway civs to roll even faster, so maybe your suggestion is correct.

    What about a supply increase, some free units and an juicy instant bonus when increasing the army size?
     
  2. Cat-du-fromage

    Cat-du-fromage Chieftain

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    Mmmh it might actually works! I really like the idea!
     
  3. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    RE: Hero Worship, I find it being my go-to Founder belief in most games. It's very useful, especially if you're Spain. It's also pretty fun doubling up on your plunder by adding faith to it.
     
  4. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    I agree that GAP are weird for a warmonger. It's one of the reasons I'm never sure how "The Morrigan" is supposed to work for Celtia.
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I really think you should try other options. I think Council of Elders' bonus is more useful and easier to activate. It doesn't matter how many cities you take, Elders basically activates on city conquest.
     
    Enrico Swagolo likes this.
  6. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    CoE is much, much better, especially if you do the typical Spanish "raze city, resettle with Conquistador" quirk. You proc the CoE twice, once for settling, once for conquest. The Faith you get from conquest is so big, getting a founder that gives you mostly Faith and an even worse yield is a bad idea. WoT is also much better than HW with how easy it is to get the max value in the end.
     
  7. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    So, CoE not scaling with era isn't a problem?
     
  8. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    The max bonus of CoE is 180P 180S per convert. Its good up to Industrial Era. After that its not very useful, especially how hard it is to convert a city in Modern Era.
    IMO its better with civ that can convert your neighbours peacefully, or with early warmonger who can conquer pre renaissance. For late game warmonger its not very useful (i.e: England who cant conquer before getting ship of the line).
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    CoE scaling with era would be pretty pointless because the big yield bath come from converting cities with no religion with minimal effort early on. CoE doesn't re-trigger off of cities you have already converted, so I only get to use it in Industrial+ if I am settling some remote island late in the game. CoE does not give the return on investment needed to encourage you to dislodge an entrenched religion; it's purely for that big medieval wonder push and the +5:c5science: on holy sites.
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Are you implying that 180 is a small number? If you are competing for a wonder, half a turn of production is still really valuable late game. The science does drop, but still it can be enough to unlock something 1 turn earlier which can be the difference between having a corporation and not having one.

    Really its late game usefulness is that it built wonders for you. Chichen Itza or Sistene Chapel is doing a lot more for your economy that hero worship ever will.
     
  11. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    I wont build wonders that I have half a turn chance to begin with :). I always make sure 90% that Im fully able to get a wonder before building it. Also timing a city convert at this stage of the game is very hard, also missionary/inquisitor are expensive then. I've tried to save some puppet to convert to shorten build time on my wonder but its not worth, better convert them right away so they dont give me loads of pressure, 3 puppets converted for 1 turn on a wonder Im sure I can get easily is not worth at all.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    CoE got a considerable nerf last patch with Hagia Sophia’s nerf, not that it wasn’t warranted. Moving Borobudur earlier was a nice big buff tho

    With those two wonders you can just auto-pump missionaries and use their conversions to wonder-rush your enhancer and your reformation
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    So you just concede the Statue of Liberty and your corporation if another civ is close in tech?

    Are you saying its better than hero worship? I know it just got doubled but I think its still like meme-status bad. Go ahead, take that founder that has "good late game". I'll keep building the strong medieval and renaissance wonders. I think Notre Dame's 8 turn golden age is more valuable than an all game hero worship.
     
  14. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    No, I didnt say its worse than hero worship. I want to say that its not good in some circumstances where you cant spread early until Modern Era (all your neighbours are founders, you cant conquer till Modern). So if I can only spread to my 6 cities until Modern, its very weak. The yields dont scale with era, so the sooner you get it, the better right?
    And I wont use something as unreliable as CoE at this stage of the game to rush wonders, I can have CS quests, Great Engineer, even an internal trade route complete which give F/P is more reliable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  15. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Byzantium is the only civ that can have guaranteed beliefs, and CoE fills a different niche, since it requires an expenditure of faith (for non-Spain civs), whereas Hero Worship procs on conquest. It also adds hammers to great prophet tiles, but I've never figured out a way to really exploit that.
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Looking over all the founder beliefs I notice something when just looking at the gameplay reinforced by each belief:
    - Holy Law is basically a worse Way of Transcendence
    - Apostolic Tradition is a worse Council of Elders

    • Divine Inheritance - :c5faith: from Holy Sites - :c5goldenage: Golden Age focus (Persia, Brazil, Rome, etc.)
    • Theocratic Rule - :c5culture: from Holy Sites - :c5happy: WLTKD/Luxury focus (China, Indonesia, Netherlands, etc.)
    • Herp Worship - :c5production: from Holy Sites - :c5war: Conquest focus (Zulu, Assyria, Mongolia, Huns, etc.)
    • Ceremonial Burial - :c5faith: from Holy Sites - :c5greatperson: Great Person focus (Arabia, Korea, Maya, Babylon etc.)
    • Way of the Pilgrim - :tourism: from Holy Sites - :c5faith: Missionary spam for Cultural Victory focus (Byzantium, Celts, etc.)
    • Council of Elders - :c5science: from Holy Sites - :c5faith: Early Spread focus to catapult ahead in techs/wonders (Egypt, Ethiopia, Russia, etc.)
    • Apostolic Tradition - :c5goldenage: from Holy Sites - :c5faith: Early Spread focus to .... do what exactly? :c5food: Grow your Capital way too big way too fast?
    • Way of Transcendence - :c5food: from Holy Sites - :c5minus: Passive Focus, just spread a bit and play normally. Big yield bath from a Rare trigger.
    • Holy Law - :c5gold: from Holy Sites - :c5minus: Passive Focus, just spread a bit and play normally. Little yield bath from a Common trigger.
    Summary:
    - WoT and CoE give better yields on a per-city basis, while Holy Law and Apostolic give worse yields on a per follower basis.
    - Council of Elders has actual synergy with civs that prioritize early tech and wonder leads to snowball.
    - I can see a situation where Apostolic would actually hurt you with major :c5unhappy: unhappiness.
    - Holy Law and Transcendence are both very passive, but Transcendence's yield bath is so big and dramatic that it feels good.
    - In contrast, Holy Law doesn't have a big effect on anything and has no synergies except maybe Poland.

    Recommendations:
    Rework Apostolic and make it something else: A founder for TR-focused civs (Ottomans, Portugal, Venice, Carthage, etc.)
    • Way of the Pilgrim: No change to Wonder. 10 :c5faith:/:c5goldenage:/:c5gold: on :trade: Completion for every :c5citizen:follower in both cities (sum of destination and origin city's followers), max of 10:c5citizen:.
    • Current way of the Pilgrim renamed to Apostolic Tradition
    Rework Holy Law and make it something else: a founder for Diplo-focused civs (Siam, Austria, Greece, etc.)
    • Holy Law: No change to Wonder. +10:c5influence: Influence for every :c5citizen:follower converted when you spread your Religion to :c5citystate:City-States. Gain :c5faith:/:c5science:/:c5gold: for Diplomatic missions for every :c5citizen: Follower in the target :c5citystate:City-State
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
    black213 likes this.
  17. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    I feel like Holy Law is decent with any culture heavy civ, whereas Way of Transcendance will be better for science heavy civs and maybe civs balanced between the two. This is just a feeling, though. I've got no maths to back it up.

    Apostolic Tradition is different than most food beliefs in that instant food yields can only be used for growth, and it's been hammered into us that uncontrolled growth is bad. Static food beliefs can at least be used to lessen the number of food tiles that need to be worked.
     
  18. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    I don't think extra food/growth in your holy city (capital) would be detrimental in any scenario that you choose Apostolic. It seems like it would be geared toward a civ going tradition/tall that otherwise doesn't have an easy time growing it's capital to support all those specialists. Austria/Korea/Arabia could make use of it.

    I'm not saying Apostolic couldn't use a buff, I'm just saying that dumps of food could plenty useful.
     
  19. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Chieftain

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    I would support a change to Apostolic Tradition; as it is today I never take it (nor Way of the Pilgrim).
     
  20. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    I think AT is good for a Tradition game, Divine Inheritance needs Golden Ages which either forces you to go Artistry or may not be possible. Also useful for Persia. I don't like it's trigger based on new followers though. Personally I wouldn't mind if we returned to the old AP, just reduced yields a little.
     

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