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Going for Gold: Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Do you often conquer a city and leave it as a foreign religion? I usually flip it to my own.

    Frankly Hero Worship has no niche, its just really bad. I understand that you see it as, this rewards conquering, and I plan to conquer, but due to the numbers and the types of yields the other beliefs are overall just better. I'd compare this to Pokemon battles (sorry if it doesn't help). Its like Electivire, which is one of the only options for a physical electric type. So it sort of has a niche as a physical electric type, but in practice that niche is just pointless, there just aren't situations where its better than other choices. Holy Law works for just about any type of empire, Theocratic Rule works even if you aren't heavily going for WLTKD, Transcendence works for any empire style. If Hero Worship is the last belief, then yes of course you take it. But you said you its go to belief, which is very different than taking it because the other options are gone.

    I feel like Way of the Pilgrim is pretty bad as well.
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I wasn’t commenting on relative power, only commenting on focus and theme. Hero worship should definitely be looked at for relative balance, but having a hard-focus production/conquest seems good.
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Focus and theme wise, I think it has issues. Early game tourism isn't valuable, so it encourages to spread late game, but there are a billion things that discourage late game spreading. With that said, its the holy site buff that I really pay attention to.

    I don't think Apostolic is bad because of happiness (I haven't chosen it in a long time, it used to be extremely strong), its because because in ideal circumstances its still only like the 6th or 7th best option. A few extra population in your capital is actually really good. My issue is its only good as tradition, which LOVES Divine Inheritance if you don't spread (Theo is good too), and if you do spread you already have 6 good options.
     
  4. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    Pilgrim is very good. Missionaries act like mini Musician in the late game (only versus civ with different religion though), and it scales with follower of other religions so you actually dont have to convert them, just spreading.
     
  5. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    It's my go-to and you also cannot rely on founder beliefs of your choice to be there when you get your prophet. :p

    I guess I don't see why you wouldn't want to conquer a city and then immediately have the resources to either buy more units immediately with faith, or immediately a GP / missionary / buidling.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I don’t really play with pilgrim, CoE is my jam. I can’t really speak to the numbers, but the idea of it is sound imo. It’s all about spreading without converting and running you missionaries into other civ’s faith walls. It’s a very unique mechanic that is viable through the entire game.

    I imagine you could run a hard tourism strat with pilgrim, stupa, pagoda, iconography, and holy sites, then prioritize Borobudur to maximize tourism. There’s a lot of synergy for a CV strat so I imagine the numbers would be very sensitive to tweaking

    The only downside is that most CV strats don’t make a habit of ticking off their neighbors by carpet-bombing them with missionaries all game
     
  7. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    I don't think the AI actually gets angry with you until you actually convert the city, or is that just for the option to tell the spreader to knock it off?
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  9. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    The AI will be extremely pissed. I played with transparent diplomacy and saw some hundred negative point for spreading in their cities. But I send missionaries in packs and bomb it at once. So I could get influence right away.
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    If others vouch for WotP, I'll believe them.
    I think regardless of your circumstances, 4 of the beliefs are objectively better than Hero Worship. So you actually can consistently rely on a better belief being available in a standard game. If you are really advocating we don't change Hero Worship, I'm going to keep replying because this belief is so incredibly bad. It sounds like it was your go to before its effects got doubled. Are you sure you are evaluating beliefs well, because the belief was doubled, either it had to be too weak before or its too strong now, right? Any of the other 8 would be way overpowered if they were doubled.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Hero Worship is going to move towards producing GG/GA points on conquest. There's more interesting synergy there for warmongers than just yields, as those are harder to come by. I'm also slightly increased the city pop scaler to /2 (from /3), so it will scale a little better late game. Right now I've got it at 100faith/25gg/25ga (the gg/ga proc is based on whether or not the city is coastal), so really it'll be 100fa and 25gg OR 25ga, scaling by (city pop / 2).

    Thoughts?

    G
     
  12. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    I really like that. Its interesting. More GG/GA for a warmonger is never a bad thing.
     
  13. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    I'm advocating that it remain an on-conquest reward; it's my go-to because it rewards what I do in the game most of the time, which is knock over cities and then buy stuff with the loot. I play on King / Emperor and do fine with the belief.


    I'm thinking I'll update the modpacks my friends use without saying anything and then play a game as Japan. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
    vyyt likes this.
  14. azum4roll

    azum4roll Chieftain

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    You can soar way ahead in culture with Way of the Pilgrim if you don't mind being hated by all other founders and spread in Medieval/Renaissance. It's not just the tourism.
     
    Gothic_Empire likes this.
  15. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    Would it be OP to keep the GA points in addition to the GG points? Or maybe shift GA points to on-kill? There are still a handful of GA oriented warmonger civs like Persia, Aztecs that benefit
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I like the GG/GA points on city capture. I was angling for an additional trigger on GG and GA birth as the big yield bath. That would unstacks Hero Worship and Crusader Spirit.

    If that’s not in the cards, I don’t think faith on city capture is the best choice. I think a combined :c5production::c5goldenage: would be a better fit. There’s already a :c5faith: on city capture in the game (Spain), the rest of the belief is focused on :c5production: already, and it’s a less controllable trigger than the Council of Elders. I know we are all a bit worried about :c5production: instant boosts, but if CoE can have one there’s no reason why HW shouldn’t
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Faith is great for conquerors looking for synergy with faith buying units, or who want to go for enhancers and reformation quickly without wasting hammers on silly temples.

    G
     
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  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Or a reformation. Faith on conquest into missionaries, spread and expand.

    G
     
    Gothic_Empire likes this.
  20. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    It's almost like it's a good yield to get from blowing up cities. :crazyeye::confused::crazyeye::confused::crazyeye:
     

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