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Going for Gold: Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I think we stick with faith as-is, and see how the GG/GA feels. If it is still lackluster we try something else.

    G
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Lots of dissenting opinions around here, which is good, however I'm curious as to whether or not there's a broad consensus on any of the other founders aside from hero worship being OP/UP

    G
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    There was relative agreement that Apostolic tradition ( :c5food::c5goldenage: on conversion) is weak, and that it suffers from direct comparison to Council of elders ( :c5production::c5science: on conversion).

    A few people came out to disagree that Apostolic wasn't an active detriment to their empire, but not a single person went as far as asserting that they would take it if CoE were available.

    I think only a single person even commented regarding Holy Law. That might be enough evidence in itself; the belief certainly doesn't inspire much love.

    Pilgrim obviously has its fans
     
  5. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Holy Law is a good belief that scales well into the mid/late game. It works well with Greece, Poland and such. I think it's a solid belief and doesn't need to be changed. The cap could maybe be increased to 300 followers though, it's quite easy to reach 200 followers compared to other beliefs being capped at 20 cities.
     
  6. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    I really think that the golden age points could stay in addition to the GG points.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Maybe on Apostolic?
     
  8. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Clearly I'm hoping he will sleep with me.
     
    Txurce, CrazyG, vyyt and 2 others like this.
  9. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    My favourite is Holy Law. Assuming you are able to convert the necessary 20 cities not that late, you will gain around 60.000 yields with top open. Culture civs or focus can lead to 70.000+ yields. One of the greatest advantages is the follower based calculation, sometimes it's easier to reach the 200 follower than 20 cities. (it's reachable with your own pop and some CS or as minor religion in foreign cities)
    2nd/3rd place goes to Way of Transcendence and Theocratic Rule. The limit of WoT is 60.000 yields. Similar to Holy Law, and with good options to rush wonders, but if you aren't able to spread before medieval, it needs a long time till you can benefit from it again in a useful amount.
    Theocratic Rule is nice too, hard to say, how many yields you are able to gain by it, but you should be able to gain more yields by it later than the previous founder beliefs, especially if you go wide and don't need to spread to others.
    4th/5th/6th are going to Apostolic Tradition, Council of Eldars and Way of the Pilgrim. All are spreading Founders. Not played that often, cause it's a bit odd to be forced spending all time, even in late game, your faith to gain a benefit from something.
    Apostolic is funny, especially together with the 50% Inquisitor effect from univerlismn, able to rush very fast a Mega City in Renaissance :D, great for Tradition and Wonder game. All have the downside of permanent faith input (which reduces your ability for GP purchase) and especially Council of Eldars will reach a limit and beyond that, you'll get nothing more from it. Some can deal with it and they may have their strength, but not for my game play style.

    7th/8th Divine Inheritance and Ceremonial Burial. I see the point for Divine, if you have only a small empire with a lot of capital focused yields (Morocco UA/statecraft/Germany/Arabia/...) or GA Synergies (Korea/Persia/Aztecs/... but it only hits the capital, while everything else isn't affected. Thecratic rule may outperform it, but it's sure dependant on circumstances. Ceremonial Burial was once my favourite Founder, now it's completely crap. To hit 60.000 yields like WoT or HL, you need 375 GP. Nobody will ever be able to reach this. How many GP do you generate in one Game? Maximum 100 with civilized jewelry? That's only 16.000 yields. No comparison.
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Is Hero Worship so bad it doesn't even get an evaluation?

    I don't think counting the total yields produced throughout the game is the best approach (but it has merit). I want to make the choice that increases my chance to win the most. Council of Elders pushing my science forward, giving me knights several turns earlier can have a huge impact on the game. Using it to reliably build the Hagia Sophia so you can spread while enhancing quickly completely changes how the religious game plays out(Elders gets Hagia faster than WoT). Theo Rule is going to have way more total yields throughout any game, but they come late (the belief isn't very impactful when you take it).

    Holy Law's yields are huge but they are weakish yields (no burst production like WoT or Elders). Holy Law is good, don't get me wrong, but I actually think that Theo Rule and WoT are the beliefs to beat.


    I've never done the math before, but your argument on Ceremonial Burial is pretty convincing. Divine Inheritance is really good for a civ that stacks all possible bonuses in the capital, so tall tradition like Arabia. Its nice to have an option with dependence on spreading whatsoever.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Ceremonial burial hasn't been buffed since The :c5faith: on GP expend enhancer was removed. Is it possible that Burial was made weaker simply because GP expending used to be an incredibly potent yield bath?

    Sounds to me like those numbers on Burial could afford to be boosted by 25%. IMO taking the yields on GP expend off of TtGoG would also be a good idea; they are too small to matter, and stack up on Burial
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    My two go-tos are COE and Theocratic Rule.

    COE gives a powerful early game bonus. Its also nice because I can spread like crazy early on, get some good yields (often a wonder), reform....and then stop caring about religious spread. Its a shot in the arm early game when I need it, and when religious spread is fun, and then I stop having to think about it.

    As a builder type player, Theocratic Rule is great. It gives a nice consistent boost that fits with my playstyle (I focus on luxuries for WLTKD, and then once your GMs start rolling steady late game WLTKD becomes permanent). It works throughout the game, and its always there for me (I don't have to "religious fight" to get it).

    Even though it got buffed a while back, I think Divine Inheritance is a pale comparison to TR. TR is in every city and WLTKD are a good deal more frequent than Golden Ages, especially early in the game.
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I would argue for the most part these two are the same. However, the key factor is that the benefit of yields decay over time. I would take 10,000 yields in ancient over 70,000 yields in information any day of the week.

    So a yield evaluation is honestly the most scientific way to compare...but such an evaluation has to have a good yield decay formula or the comparison becomes false.
     
  14. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I can't wait to try a Hero Worship that is pickable myself. Will roll Japan on the next patch, the daimyo/dayum patronage thingy should create a synergy of some sort.

    That's BiteInTheMark's domain you're treading on, cease and desist right now.
     
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  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    This was my point. If you add all yields together, things that give big numbers in the information era will seem huge compared to the smaller but far more useful yields in Classical or Medieval.

    Holy Law looks great too, but a huge bath of yields from picking ideologies is only relevant in a pretty small number of games. I think that Theo Rule, Elders, and WoT are the 3 overall strongest.
     
  16. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Perhaps all founders should scale off of # of followers exclusively. Would make balancing yields less convoluted
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    A few of the founders are getting tweaked, based on some performance considerations. I'll post the changelog soon.

    G
     
  18. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    No experience with it.
    You overestimate the amount of yields you gain by CoE. Atleast for a standard map. In my current game, there are 62 with room for maybe 80.
    If you convert 20 cities (the maximum for some founders), you would gain 1461:c5science:/:c5production:. How many cities are you typically able to convert on a standard map? 25 would be already a lot on a non-communitas map. This would give 2407:c5science:/:c5production:.
    In that state of the game, its a large sum. Enough for 3 medieval techs and 12 Knights. If you are able to use that boost to start your snowballing, the founder has done its duty, but if not, then it was a bad pick. You may reach for example the tech for Hagia Sophia as the first, but you need still the policy requirements to build it. The Founder belief has its place in the game, but it isnt my playstyle and the total yields arnt overwhelming.
    Why is CoE able to spread like crazy? It doesnt give any faith to help with that.
    HL may not be that much better yield wise, but you can trigger it more often, instantly using the gained faith for faster spreading than waiting 3 times longer to get a greater burst. And the argument against Holy Law is more an arguement against WoT than against HL. WoT is scaling with Era and gets the most yields in the latest stage of the game, while you are able to reach the cap for Holy Law much earlier. I think Holy Law, Thecratic and WoT are on the same high level, and Holy Law is my favourite by flavor. CoE is for me a bit like a gamble, cause of that I didnt like it that much.
     
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I have literally never unlocked Theology while not having enough social policies to build the Hagia Sophia. My last game as Ethiopia I rush Theology with absolute minimum number of techs to get it, choose a science pantheon, received 3 free techs for being Ethiopia, and I still had enough policies with plenty of culture to spare. I'm suspicous you have no experience with this approach.

    Elders (and WoT to a big extent) often means I get a wonder I don't with another path, including things like Notre Dame or the Forbidden City. The huge amounts of culture, production, or gold that having those wonders does for an empire is completely game changing, and your analysis misses that. Getting knights and smacking a neighboring Japan, Spain, or China before they get their medieval unique unit is game changing, it can easily be the difference a win and a loss.

    All this to say, that if Elders is actually a tier 2 belief with 3 options consistently better than it, those other beliefs need to be brought down, not the other way around.
     
  20. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Sorry I don't understand your first sentences. Do you say you rushed to theology before you founded a pantheon? And why should you get 3 policies by rushing theology? What's to do with 3 free techs by being Ethiopia with culture? Sorry that's a weird explanation.

    I can't remember not getting forbidden palace, and I play often progress. But pick in most cases Holy Law. You still get a lot of science to reach the tech and good money to buy things or rush wonders too. And I didn't see that huge game changing aspect of Notre Dame, sorry, it saves you 3 turns of production, science and culture, this isn't game changing. Even oracle looks better.

    You missed the point that I said that CoE can be the door opener to snowballing. I never denied that. But your own example shows that you mainly have to use it for war to get the most benefit of it. If you waste that 12 knights in a useless war, what do you have achieved with the belief?

    I didn't say anything about how the founders have to be adjusted. It was only a rating.
     

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