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Going for Gold: Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Do you just make no effort to understand anyone who disagrees with you?

    Even if your science is extremely high, you won't unlock theology before you have enough social policies to build the Hagia Sophia, unless your culture is just horrible.
     
  2. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    I have to disagree with you on this, even with really good culture, if I beeline to Theology I almost never have enough policies (7) to build Hagia Sophia. By that time I just can finish my 1st tree at most, and still several turns before opening my 2nd tree. Maybe I can have enough culture if I got Oracle but I dont get it in all game.
    About COE, I think its ok. In the right circumstance, it can be very strong and game changing. But it will require you to be able to spread early, which is hard if youre unlucky (locked into war with your neighbours who are also founder and they spam missionaries like crazy converting city states). And with only maybe 6 of your own cities converted, it feels really weak. I think its fine because it can be strong, and weak in the right circumstance, so its not overpower or underpower.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Ah yes I forgot I almost always build Oracle. I mean, the reason you would take CoE is to rush Oracle/Hagia/ a third wonder.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think we have enough support for COE that it doesn’t need changing.

    What are people’s thought on hero worship and divine inheritance?
     
  5. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    CoE is pretty good for Spain too. Well, it was last time I played it at least. Raze/resettle with a Conquistador combo makes it very worthwhile even for renaissance, though some cities should be kept if they do keep decent infrastructure. Especially if they have religious buildings of another religion, that can make them very worthwhile acquisitions.

    Hero Worship is garbage. Underwhelming yields of an underwhelming variety for an effort far higher than what others require. It pretty much doesn't exist for me, and I really like war. It's set up to get a pretty sizeable buff in the next version, so discussion is pointless.

    Divine Inheritance is +25% in capital on Golden Age? If yes, I think it's not exactly perfect. It might be getting a buff too for all we know as several founders will be changed, and Gazebo said he will post changelog soon (Valve time)
     
    Bromar1 and CrazyG like this.
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    I was wondering. Colossus has for me a higher priority and this makes it difficult to get Oracle too. "The reason why you take CoE...." ..... If a belief is only good or one very special task (getting the 3 mentioned wonders), its for me a poor belief. Yes, it may do this task greatly, but I didnt think its the purpose of the founder beliefs to be so specialized. Spoken from a view of general balance.
    I think it will be difficult to balance CoE, cause in the right hands, you can get a huge boost and overthrow your neighbors by the hammer and science injection like steroids. On the other side, if you only slowly convert one city and another, the yields are in total very underwhelming.
    Its like balancing Denmark with the former runestone which gave yields in every city for pillaging. While it was balanced in AI hands cause of mediocre amount of pillaging, a human hand was able to farm the neighbors like milk cows and runaway economically and culture wise.
    Divine inheritance has its place, but I think it might could get a buff (Go up from 20 to 25% or start immidiatly a GA after picking or GA last 20% longer. Something like that)
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    There are a million things in the mod I can say this about. At the end of day, the whole point is to combine smart gameplay with game mechanics to win. Otherwise, we aren't playing the game, its playing us.

    Now does COE require more active gameplay to get its best use...yes it does. Is that a balance issue?....only if its too an extreme degree, and I don't see that here. My optimizations pale to the level of the diety players on this board and yet I still get plenty of benefit out of COE.
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Curious, do people use Divine Inheritance for Venice / OCC? Ideally that playstyle would be its absolute strongest. If people still use other founders instead of DI for those scenarios....than DI clearly needs some love.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I'm a little worried about the change to hero worship still... Most civs don't need large numbers of GA or GGs, and this belief is likely only to net you 2 more of each than a normal playthrough. If you aren't Japan or Sweden, what does that actually get you? An extra citadel somewhere and some more luxuries. If you are already neck deep in someone else's empire, enough to be getting the GG/GA points from conquest then you probably already have your army kitted out with the GGs that you leave around, and are going to just burn the extra ones for their immediate bonuses. I can't see this having a whole lot of game impact except for the civs who are specifically oriented towards GGs.

    I think keeping the GG/GA points on city capture, but moving the faith and 1 additional yield type to GG/GA birth is still a better play. It has a few advantages over the conquest-only setup
    • unstacks yields on conquest from Crusader Spirit, a reformation belief which already does the same thing
    • reorients players towards gameplay which maximizes GG/GA generation. Players can use free GPs from events/wonders to capitalize on their belief, and aren't constrained to wars of conquest, so defensive civs with aggressive neighbors also have a reason to take this belief. You can still use the belief for standard conquest and make good use of it, but it makes situations like Attila being your neighbor, and turning one of your borders into a meat grinder as a great belief opportunity.
    • Aside from the GG/GA points, I don't think :c5faith: faith alone provides enough economic incentive for this belief. As I said, more GG/GAs is nice, but the benefits are relatively minor if you aren't waging multi-front wars or already have the necessary GGs/GAs up and with your army.
    • Effects on GG/GA birth is relatively unique, only being used in Japan and Sweden's UAs right now, and neither of those provide yields on birth. Uniqueness for uniqueness' sake isn't necessarily the highest priority, but it's nice.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Religion Changes

    Code:
        Holy Law - pop limiter now 300, was 200
        Ceremonial Burial - now 14/14, was 8/8
        Hero Worship - now 25 GA/GG points (dep. on city location), and 100 faith/gap on conquest (was 60/60 faith/gap)
    
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The reason I'm against this is that each founder belief has one trigger type. That's by design, and it helps keep things relatively clear (my religion gets x from y).

    G
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    If 1 trigger only is the case, then between a trigger on GG/GA birth and a trigger on city capture, I think a trigger on GG/GA birth is more interesting. You could simply add GA/GG points to the wonder, or add some bonus to GA/GG generation to the core belief
     
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  13. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    There are a number of "expend Great Person" beliefs, and effects as a whole, but zero "Great Person birth" beliefs, and few other effects that provide it. GGs and GAs are more receptive to being born over being expended compared to all of the other Great People (for which birth and expend are essentially synonymous).

    There is one "conquer a city" belief, and a good number of effects in general.
     
  14. doublex55

    doublex55 Chieftain

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    No Divine inheritance change?
     
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  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    There are exactly 0 posts referring to Holy Law as weak, and it gets that massive increase to its pop limiter?
     
    black213 likes this.
  16. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Code:
        Holy Law - pop limiter now 300, was 200
        Ceremonial Burial - now 14/14, was 8/8
        Hero Worship - now 25 GA/GG points (dep. on city location), and 100 faith/gap on conquest (was 60/60 faith/gap)
    
    Holy Law: I love the pantheon and should be happy about it, but this was unnecessary
    Ceremonial Burial: Much better, but I still will not pick it
    Hero Worship: GA/GG is the last thing a warmonger civ needs
     
  17. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I agree, if Holy Law seems to underperform, give it something small. Maybe 220/225 followers, or 250. 300 might be too drastic.
     
    black213 likes this.
  18. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Chieftain

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    I tried Way of the Pilgrim, and got thousands worth of culture from it (hundreds starting in late Medieval, I think), so I take back my earlier comment that it's not worth it.
    Mind you, I was Byzantium, so I had plenty of faith to spare, and Missionaries were cheap.

    I have a question about it: does it scale based on
    - number of followers of other religions in the city
    or
    - the above AND population converted
    ?

    I hope it's the latter, because otherwise there's a weird incentive to never actually convert people, i.e. let your Missionaries go down to 500 (1st attempt) - 250 (2nd attempt) pressure to maximize the yields you get from it.
    India was in the game, so they were a great target (high pop, and due to the high pressure - or via Inquisitors - the people I converted reverted back to the Indian religion, and I could restart).

    On the other hand, the tourism didn't seem to make a huge difference, but it could be because modifiers are applied to it despite it being an instant yield? I had 7 settled cities, so the negative modifier is quite high.
    Or perhaps it's just because early tourism is not what matters.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    a.) I wasn't aware I was only allowed to change things you all mentioned. AI performance feedback on this one.
    b.) The 300 is misleading, it'll be 250 on a standard map with the scaling implemented correctly.

    G
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I didn't intend that tone. Its just strange to see a belief which was really highly regarded through this whole discussion receive more benefits.
     
    Gazebo likes this.

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