(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Great People

[pineappledan]

I deleted my previous post because I forgot that stock markets boost towns already.

Perhaps, though, the boost to towns could come earlier, at banks, if people are wanting to buff merchants a bit.

 

[Heavy Q]

A small but meaningful balance change for great merchant would be to either buff their movement range, or allow them to be consumed instantly. Engineers, Scientists, Artists can all be consumed as soon as they spawn, but Merchants have to travel to a city state for their "instant boost" choice. This would have the effect of buffing Great Merchants without actually changing any of the underlying mechanics.

 

[Stalker0]

A small but meaningful balance change for great merchant would be to either buff their movement range, or allow them to be consumed instantly. Engineers, Scientists, Artists can all be consumed as soon as they spawn, but Merchants have to travel to a city state for their "instant boost" choice. This would have the effect of buffing Great Merchants without actually changing any of the underlying mechanics.

That makes sense to me. On the flip side, you could let their mission grant a little more influence. No where near GD levels, but enough that it makes a difference

 

[chicorbeef]

A small but meaningful balance change for great merchant would be to either buff their movement range, or allow them to be consumed instantly. Engineers, Scientists, Artists can all be consumed as soon as they spawn, but Merchants have to travel to a city state for their "instant boost" choice. This would have the effect of buffing Great Merchants without actually changing any of the underlying mechanics.

This. GMs shouldn't even need to have to go to a CS. I understand it's flavourful but it's a pain when your nearby CS are at war with you.

 

[tu_79]

This. GMs shouldn't even need to have to go to a CS. I understand it's flavourful but it's a pain when your nearby CS are at war with you.

Isn't it part of the fun? When you are the diplomatic runaway, it's nice to see how your opponents are forced to send their great merchants far away, where you can easily kill them. Or be expended in towns.

 

[chicorbeef]

Isn't it part of the fun? When you are the diplomatic runaway, it's nice to see how your opponents are forced to send their great merchants far away, where you can easily kill them. Or be expended in towns.

Well, I guess the question is if these side effects are by design or not.

Honestly I've never intercepted an AI GM as far as I can remember.

 

[Txurce]

Well, I guess the question is if these side effects are by design or not.

Honestly I've never intercepted an AI GM as far as I can remember.

It's by design -- they're conducting a trade mission. Just like a GD is establishing an embassy.

 

[tu_79]

Well, I guess the question is if these side effects are by design or not.

Honestly I've never intercepted an AI GM as far as I can remember.

Probably because they were expended as towns. Have you noticed how many towns you can capture when you are the diplomatic leader?

 

[Gidoza]

Would be interesting strategically if the bulb and improvement of Scientists and Engineers were opposed to each other, that is: Scientists make Manufacturies, Engineers make Academies: you need a good scientist to make a production facility run well, and you need a good engineer to create something like CERN. This way, a player could mix production and science, use both for tons of production, or use both for tons of science. Nice variety, and you never need to worry about whether the improvement becomes "obsolete" in the late game when considering its bulbing counterpart.

 

[Stalker0]

Would be interesting strategically if the bulb and improvement of Scientists and Engineers were opposed to each other, that is: Scientists make Manufacturies, Engineers make Academies: you need a good scientist to make a production facility run well, and you need a good engineer to create something like CERN. This way, a player could mix production and science, use both for tons of production, or use both for tons of science. Nice variety, and you never need to worry about whether the improvement becomes "obsolete" in the late game when considering its bulbing counterpart.

This topic is locked for gold.

 

[Gidoza]

This topic is locked for gold.

Most locked topics I've ever seen don't let you post in them at all, and if I can post, I will.

 

[Stalker0]

Most locked topics I've ever seen don't let you post in them at all, and if I can post, I will.

Just didn't want you to waste your time is all.

 

[pineappledan]

Necro!

So what in the lemon-scented hell is going on with GP scaling? I was trying to understand the math behind GEngineer Hurry Production bulbs, and found the following:

The BaseHurry and HurryMultiplier values on the GEngineer are 100 and 20, respectively
The Unit_ScalingFromOwnedImprovements value on the Manufactory is 20%. Note that every other GPTI besides Manufactory is only 10%.
GEngineers do not have any scaling by era - same value for 1st GEngineer, whether born in ancient or medieval
A GEngineer born after another GEngineer will have the exact same Hurry amount, unless the previous GEngineer was used to make a manufactory. There is no scaling except manufactories.

So, going from 0 to 4 manufactories in the same era, this is the total amount of I would get for each Engineer:
0 manufactory = 240 (2x (basehurry + hurrymultiplier)??? How is this base value calculated?)
1 manufactory = 264 (+10% of 240)
2 manufactory = 336 (+27% of 264, or +40% of 240)
3 manufactory = 364 (+8.0% of 336, or +52% of 240)
4 manufactory = 392 (+7.6% of 364, or +63% of 240)

What is going on here? They appear to be scaling, but they scale based on some impenetrable moon-math. Shouldn't it be 240 ==> 288 ==> 346 ==> 415 ==> 498? That would be the scaling if GEngineers actually did what they said they do.

Also, these are just pathetic numbers. 240 is more than enough to complete a wonder in ancient and Classical (Stonehenge is 220), but manufactories, besides not scaling enough, are the only means of scaling that I could find at all. By themselves, they aren't enough to keep pace with the cost of anything. Even with 4 manufactories, that maybe saves you 4-6 turns in your capital during the Renaissance, and certainly isn't enough to pull you ahead of anything but the tightest wonder races.

I think adding some era scaling is justified, at least so that civs that aren't prioritizing Engineers don't find themselves with a pathetic <300 in Renaissance. Maybe 100 per era.
You could also add a flat boost of 20-50, for each GEng born, regardless of whether they build manufactories or hurry production. Then a GEng born after you expend one for HurryProduction would at least be a little bit better than its predecessor.

Honestly, with these numbers I can't understand why anyone would ever use a GEng bulb after Classical.

 

[Gazebo]

Necro!

So what in the lemon-scented hell is going on with GP scaling? I was trying to understand the math behind GEngineer Hurry Production bulbs, and found the following:

The BaseHurry and HurryMultiplier values on the GEngineer are 100 and 20, respectively
The Unit_ScalingFromOwnedImprovements value on the Manufactory is 20%. Note that every other GPTI besides Manufactory is only 10%.
GEngineers do not have any scaling by era - same value for 1st GEngineer, whether born in ancient or medieval
A GEngineer born after another GEngineer will have the exact same Hurry amount, unless the previous GEngineer was used to make a manufactory. There is no scaling except manufactories.

So, going from 0 to 4 manufactories in the same era, this is the total amount of I would get for each Engineer:
0 manufactory = 240 (2x (basehurry + hurrymultiplier)??? How is this base value calculated?)
1 manufactory = 264 (+10% of 240)
2 manufactory = 336 (+27% of 264, or +40% of 240)
3 manufactory = 364 (+8.0% of 336, or +52% of 240)
4 manufactory = 392 (+7.6% of 364, or +63% of 240)

What is going on here? They appear to be scaling, but they scale based on some impenetrable moon-math. Shouldn't it be 240 ==> 288 ==> 346 ==> 415 ==> 498? That would be the scaling if GEngineers actually did what they said they do.

Also, these are just pathetic numbers. 240 is more than enough to complete a wonder in ancient and Classical (Stonehenge is 220), but manufactories, besides not scaling enough, are the only means of scaling that I could find at all. By themselves, they aren't enough to keep pace with the cost of anything. Even with 4 manufactories, that maybe saves you 4-6 turns in your capital during the Renaissance, and certainly isn't enough to pull you ahead of anything but the tightest wonder races.

I think adding some era scaling is justified, at least so that civs that aren't prioritizing Engineers don't find themselves with a pathetic <300 in Renaissance. Maybe 100 per era.
You could also add a flat boost of 20-50, for each GEng born, regardless of whether they build manufactories or hurry production. Then a GEng born after you expend one for HurryProduction would at least be a little bit better than its predecessor.

Honestly, with these numbers I can't understand why anyone would ever use a GEng bulb after Classical.

//    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
int CvUnit::getHurryProduction(const CvPlot* pPlot) const
{
    CvCity* pCity = GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).getCity(m_iOriginCity);
   
    if (pCity == NULL)
        pCity = pPlot->getOwningCity();

    if(pCity == NULL)
    {
        return 0;
    }

    int iProduction = getMaxHurryProduction(pCity);

    if (GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).GetGreatEngineerHurryMod() != 0)
    {
        iProduction += (iProduction * GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).GetGreatEngineerHurryMod()) / 100;
        iProduction = MAX(iProduction, 0); // Cannot be negative
    }

    return std::max(0, iProduction);
}

//    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
int CvUnit::getMaxHurryProduction(CvCity* pCity) const
{
    int iProduction;

    iProduction = (m_pUnitInfo->GetBaseHurry() + (m_pUnitInfo->GetHurryMultiplier() * pCity->getPopulation()));

#if defined(MOD_BALANCE_CORE_NEW_GP_ATTRIBUTES)
    //Let's make the GM a little more flexible.
    if (MOD_BALANCE_CORE_NEW_GP_ATTRIBUTES)
    {
        //scale up our value
        iProduction = GetScaleAmount(iProduction);
    }
#endif

    iProduction *= GC.getGame().getGameSpeedInfo().getUnitHurryPercent();
    iProduction /= 100;

    return std::max(0, iProduction);
}

int CvUnit::GetScaleAmount(int iAmountToScale) const
{
    int iScaleTotal = 0;
    for (int i = 0; i < GC.getNumImprovementInfos(); i++)
    {
        ImprovementTypes eImprovement = (ImprovementTypes)i;
        if (eImprovement == NO_IMPROVEMENT)
            continue;

        int iScaleAmount = getUnitInfo().GetScalingFromOwnedImprovements(eImprovement);
        if (iScaleAmount <= 0)
            continue;

        int iOwned = GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).CountAllImprovement(eImprovement, true);
        iAmountToScale *= ((iOwned * iScaleAmount) + 100);
        iAmountToScale /= 100;

        iScaleTotal += iAmountToScale;
    }

    return iScaleTotal;
}

 

[pineappledan]

So GEng bulbs scale off gamespeed, #manufactories, and the city's population? That probably threw off my math, since I wasn't paying attention to the city's population while I was calculating these.

Of note, even though Manufactories have a Unit_ScalingFromOwnedImprovements =20, they still only increase subsequent bulbing by 10%

1 in City == 40 Hurry Production.
Manufactory scaler is +10% of 200 + (40*CityPopulation)

So, if you had 2 manufactories in empire, a HurryProduction Action in a 5 city would be

1.20 * (200 + (5 * 40)) == 440

This scaling method addresses part of my concern -- era scaling isn't necessary after all -- but population growth slows down considerably after Medieval. A 12 capital by the end of Classical is fairly ordinary, but a 40+ capital by Modern is rare and impressive. This means that the scaling of the base value used for HurryProduction falls off in the late game.

I will reiterate my idea about adding a scaler for every GEng born on Empire. Making it 40 per GEng seems fair and consistent with the pop scaler. The number of GPs born picks up in later eras as city growth slows down. I think this would partly address the issue other players have noted about late game bulbing being poor value.

 

[Stalker0]

What if instead of pop scaler you just base it on the city's production?

Concert Tours use X turns of your empire's tourism output. What if GE's use X turns of your current city's production? You could then either have manufactories increase that by 1 (similar to Great Musicians) or just note that the manufactories extra production gets multiplied by the bulb.

That does two things:

1) GE bulbs become weaker early and stronger later. This give more encouragement for manufactories, similar to what we have done with other GPs.
2) It makes it extremely easy to understand. Effectively if my GE provides 5 turns of production, it reduces the number of turns for building my wonder by 5. If my wonder would take 12 turns, GE reduces it to 7. You don't have to worry about looking at the hammers, it just works exactly the same way every time.

 

[pineappledan]

What if instead of pop scaler you just base it on the city's production?

Concert Tours use X turns of your empire's tourism output. What if GE's use X turns of your current city's production? You could then either have manufactories increase that by 1 (similar to Great Musicians) or just note that the manufactories extra production gets multiplied by the bulb.

That does two things:

1) GE bulbs become weaker early and stronger later. This give more encouragement for manufactories, similar to what we have done with other GPs.
2) It makes it extremely easy to understand. Effectively if my GE provides 5 turns of production, it reduces the number of turns for building my wonder by 5. If my wonder would take 12 turns, GE reduces it to 7. You don't have to worry about looking at the hammers, it just works exactly the same way every time.

seems like something that could be gamed by someone putting a production focus on their city 5 turns prior to a GP birth. I think the citypop is fine, but it’s not sufficient to address the drop off in growth at later eras, and it doesn’t feel right that subsequent GEngineers shouldn’t be able to outperform their predecessors. They don’t “stand on the shoulders of giants”, so to speak.

Edit: a scaled off all prior GEng births would also add a global component to the base scaler, which is currently only scaled on local pop. I think you want to have some local component so that a tiny city can’t just rush a modern wonder — an engineer is only as good as his tools, after all — but it doesn’t make rushing things in your smaller cities feel like as much of a waste

 

[chicorbeef]

seems like something that could be gamed by someone putting a production focus on their city 5 turns prior to a GP birth. I think the citypop is fine, but it’s not sufficient to address the drop off in growth at later eras, and it doesn’t feel right that subsequent GEngineers shouldn’t be able to outperform their predecessors. They don’t “stand on the shoulders of giants”, so to speak.

Edit: a scaled off all prior GEng births would also add a global component to the base scaler, which is currently only scaled on local pop. I think you want to have some local component so that a tiny city can’t just rush a modern wonder — an engineer is only as good as his tools, after all — but it doesn’t make rushing things in your smaller cities feel like as much of a waste

I think scaling it off is fine. You can also time Scientists/Writers with yield spikes. It wouldn't be that drastic of a difference to focus on prior anyway, just some small micromanagement stuff.

Normally a tiny city won't have a ton of so you don't need to worry about that. If a city has high but low , then thematically, why shouldn't it be able to build advanced stuff?

 

[tu_79]

Somehow, I dislike the idea of great engineers being better in better cities. I think a better city already helps building things faster with its inner production.

It's OK for them to scale, but I'd rather use number of manufactories and number of technologies. The other scaling is gamey, as pineappledan says.

 

[CrazyG]

I feel like scaling off population (the current system) works out pretty well. Growing cities to be huge isn't that good of a strategy in general, its nice to have great engineers as a payoff.