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Going for Gold: Ideologies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Let me dig into this one a bit. First, lets take another look at lumbermills vs farms in the late game. If we assume permanent GA which is common at this point. I will also assume the city has access to a workshop, Agribusiness, Hospital, Bank, and Train Station/Seaport for the purpose of base multipliers (I consider banks to effectively convert 1 GPT = .15 SPT....but if people think that's a bad assumption please let me know). I am not assuming triangles for either one.

    So modifier wise that is:
    1) +45% prod
    2) +1 gold per tiles that make gold
    3) 1 Food = .05 science and .1 gold
    4) 1 Gold = .15 science

    Lumbermill - 8 prod, 2 gold. With modifiers that is 11.6 prod, 2 gold, .30 science.
    Farm - 5 food, 2 prod, 2 gold. With modifiers that is 5 food, 2.9 prod, 3.5 gold, .775 science

    Historically we often like to say 2 gold = 1 prod. However, I think in the late game gold becomes more valuable (as turns run down instant buying becomes stronger), so to condense the argument I am going to say that 1 gold = 1 prod. I will also say that 1 science = 2 prod (this is probably an over valuation but I am giving the counter to my argument the benefit of the doubt). So we are currently at:

    Lumbermill: 14.2 prod
    Farm: 5 food, 7.95 prod

    So now the crux of the argument and the important question: X food = 1 prod at this point in the game? I have argued in the past that food is very weak at this point, I might put it at 4 food = 1 prod. Others might think its stronger. But again giving the benefit of the doubt, let me give it a full 1 food = 1 prod value. That would be

    Lumbermill: 14.2 prod
    Farm: 12.95 prod

    So I think I've given farms the benefit of the doubt in all of my assumptions....and lumbermills still come out ahead. So I do not feel that this assertion that Agribusiness makes farms superior to all other base terrain is accurate. However, I have made a number of assumptions here, so please give your thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Its a good question so I want people's thoughts. I personally don't mind that certainly ideologies are niche, as there are enough of them to go around. If a policy doesn't hit its niche in one game, but it does in another, than that is perfectly fine and reasonable. For example, I don't take 5 year plan is every order game I've played, but I have taken it in some when I thought the production was of value. PADs point above is that, in a competitive game, you are going to spend far more of your hammer budget (at this point in the game) on units and processes.. this particular niche is so rare in a competitive game that its not a niche worth considering....and hence the policy is too weak.

    What do other people think on that concept? Do you find that you are still building enough buildings at this point in the game that the bonus has value, or you are so focused on other things that a building bonus is very weak?
     
  3. cerk

    cerk Chieftain

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    I dont think space procurement should be nerfed. In that game I was making around 850GPT with 13 trade routes takes about 8 turns to get a spaceship part, putting it on par with order's hammers. But at that point, the world congress had successfully enacted spaceflight regulations and sanctioned me. With sanctions there is literally no way to make space procurement work as a freedom player and they have a high enough victory block level to pull it off. A single well timed war can also get many TRs plundered. I was just lucky enough to have 50k gold stocked in that game without spies stealing it.

    Draft registration on the other hand could give more flat supply with some reduction in free XP.

    Freedom does have some huge duds like treaty organisation. An autocracy player can get those 4 votes through hall of honour by just having 2 vassals and does not spend an entire policy on a T3 tenet. If I could get 1 civ afraid with the atomic bomb as a freedom player, an autocracy player can spam tributes. Votes on DoF from International finance centre is just 1 more delegate tops.

    Futurism, a T1 tenet produces about 10 turns worth of the 25% media culture produces, in addition to boosting historic events. Cult of personality gives a 50% boost compared to media culture's 25%. Media culture's 20% culture is equal to Iron fist.
    Spoiler futurism vs media culture :


    Sid Meier's Civilization V (DX11) 11_22_2019 5_34_47 AM.png

    Comparing 2100:tourism: with 25% of 1000:tourism: (I had not taken media culture in my freedom game). But this is also when my tourism has been boosted by internet, globalisation and other late game techs. So the 2100:tourism: from autocracy makes me influential sooner.


    I think freedom being tall needs those bonuses to stay competitive with the equally powerful autocracy, similar to how tradition is loaded with GP, GA, food. Order needs a buff.
     
  4. cerk

    cerk Chieftain

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    These are the buildings from Industrial era
    Industrial - public school, train station, hotel, arsenal, museum, agribusiness, factory, military academy
    Modern - hospital, stock exchange, corporation office, research lab, broadcast tower
    Atomic - medical lab, military base, airport
    Information - power plant, strategic defence system, spaceship factory

    If I am rushing 5 year plan, I need 6 industrial era policies, 2 T1 order, 1 T2 order. That is at least a 100 turns (for me). It is safe to say I've built all the industrial era buildings. Modern era onward buildings cost 8+GPT. I'm definitely building stock exchange, corp offices, research labs, broadcast towers, airports, power plants. Other buildings are situational. Lets assume that a building takes 15 turns to build. I save about 18 turns which is nice, but not sure if its worth spending a policy for. Would be better if the policy makes x buildings in every city maintenance free like pineappledan proposed.
     
  5. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    If I'm trying to win a (peaceful) science victory game, I always take Freedom, no ifs and buts, simply because of the Space Procurements.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    By buff I think its just more polishing of its niche. In general, I think order gives great boosts to science and production. Nationalization is also one of the coolest ideologies in the game to me, as it lets you completely change up your trade and corporation strategy (also very effective if you have resigned to being sanctioned in the game).

    Ultimately I think there are 3 problems with order (which PAD also summarized some of which earlier).

    1) Its production bonus is outplayed by Freedom's space procurements towards the end game. Even if you manage to buy just 1 part, its such a tremendous boost when you need it that it gives Freedom player's too much of an edge in SV. Even if Order has better science AND production than freedom, it ultimately doesn't matter when it really really counts (aka for the SV). You probably could just let space procurements grant a spaceship factory in every city, remove the gold buy, and keep the science bonus. Its still a great bonus (this basically a +25-35% science boost)….and is still a big production boost...but its a boost order can more directly counter. Its also less prone to "gaming", such as the idea of dismissing all of your troops to buy the last spaceship part.

    2) Its CV tenants are weak and weird. Well...at least I think Dictatorship of the Proletariat is weak at higher levels. I am generally competing in CV against tall freedom players, and they have all the happiness in the world. So I just don't see this bonus coming up very much. I would almost go with something like "X% tourism bonus against civs with less non-specialists than you"....it basically lets you lean in with the weight of your regular people on other civs...or something. Also...there is always the possibility as instead of "moar tourism!" actually give them something usual to do with it. While I don't use Autocracy's syndicalism that much, I really appreciate the idea that I turn my tourism lead into a usual bonus instead of just "hoarding tourism for CV".

    3) No assistance for DV. Order offers nothing in the way to win by DV. Now you could argue that Autocracy doesn't do anything for SV....but realistically warring is the counter to any victory condition. If you want to win science as autocracy just beat down the science leader....and then you are usually big enough to generate the science you need anyway. I do like an earlier idea of regearing something like cultural revolution into more of a DV mechanic.
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Alright, I spent a little time thinking about how to make the oddball Order's policies not just better, but "cooler". I don't think order needs that much more raw strength per say, but some more tenants that shake things up and give you some interesting gameplay options. I tried to use (mostly) current mechanics to limit the amount of new coding.

    Peace, Land, Bread: (add) You can purchase tiles from other civs (ala Washington's bonus).

    This is cool land grab mechanic in the vein of lebensraum, but in a different way. I personally don't think it detracts from Washington, because Washington is more about snagging early land for that wonderful prod bonus and less about the actually taking of other land.

    Cultural Revolution: (change) Gain automatic open borders with all Order civs you are not at war with. +10% tourism for every civ you are at least popular with.(maybe influential if the popular bonus is too much).

    This presents the idea of the "communal brotherhood" of order. It also gives you a means to circumvent sanctions, which is a theme of the tree. The tourism bonus is the notion of the people rising up and getting stronger and more influential.

    People's Army: (complete change) Each city gains a supply free unit when it completes a defensive building, or when a war is declared on you (similar to honor just with different triggers)

    The idea of common conscription and the people rising up when needed.

    Academy of Sciences: (change) -20% Illiteracy. Research Labs provide +33% bonus to Great Diplomat production.

    Placed a DV concept into this tree. The idea of persuasion through superior science.


    I also thought a DV concept around pledge of protections could be cool in order, but frankly I find pledges impossible to maintain in the late game.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I thought it was commonly understood that there was 1 victory type that each ideology was specifically NOT targetting, so as not to dilute any of the trees. The man who chases two rabbits catches neither. Also, there's 4 victory types (excluding time) but only 3 Tier 3 slots.
    Order Has no edge on Diplo
    Autocracy has no edge on Science
    Freedom has no edge on Domination (or at least they have the least)
    This doesn't mean that the ideologies can't be twisted to serve one of those victory conditions anyways. Order's production can be leveraged to pump out diplomats, and it's not like Autocracy gives no science whatsoever. It's not productive to try to fix Order by adding 1-2 limp diplo bonuses though.

    No love for my idea of adding a Propaganda :tourism:Tourism process? I thought that was a great idea. If Cultural Revolution is moved to Tier 3, unlocking a unique process is both very different and gives Order a meaningful way to leverage all its purported production bonuses.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Personally I liked your tourism bonus to specialists idea better...but I'm also fairly biased I think when it comes to processes, to me they are not something you use "strategically" its the "I've got nothing left worth building might as well use these"

    We should also keep in mind that giving some CS bonuses does not necessarily mean the tree is "geared for that condition". CS grants bonuses, allies, and votes...that doesn't mean they have to be used for a DV victory. But just like several trees give trade bonuses, there's nothing wrong with giving order some CS bonuses. I think your point is valid we don't want to go hardcore in this direction, but a little flirtation with it is not an issue to me.
     
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I know I said cultural revolution is carte Blanche, and I still think it is, but a propaganda campaign seems like as good of a fit as you could get, while papering over the massacres... and the famine... and cannibalism... god Maoist China is so weird. Anyways, the cultural revolution in the most favourable light was a massive propaganda campaign to restore Mao’s personality cult.

    Regarding other possible CV focused bonuses, maybe Dictatorship if the Proletariat could increase the happiness penalty on other civs due to your own cultural influence, so Order makes bigger pressure on other civs to switch to your ideology?

    Maybe enemy civs’ total distress/poverty on empire could be used to calculate a % tourism modifier vs that civ? So failing to meet your own peoples’ basic needs makes them more vulnerable to order’s ideology? (Obviously ignoring the distress in your own empire. The grass is always greener on Karl’s lawn.)

    Also, I just realized that Order’s CV policies have to kinda make up for lost ground. Freedom and Autocracy both have powerful Corporation tools that help them spread, and each franchise gives a tourism modifier. Nationalization completely subtracts Order’s ability to use their corporation for cultural influence, so this is a serious poison pill if you are going for a CV. Obviously this means that you don’t pick nationalization if you are pursuing an Order CV, but this also means that functionally, Freedom has 3 tourism tenets and Autocracy has 4, while Order has only 2.

    @Stalker0 I’m still just scratching my head over your peace,land,bread proposal. What is going on there? You want to unlock buying other civ’s land at the game stage where many cities are working on their 5th-6th culture ring? You want the ideology that was most tepid on the notion of property rights to be the one that gets to buy other countries’ land? You want Peace, Land and Bread to be a tool to actively goad another civ into war with you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  11. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    I think both is true. Freedom is too versatile in kinda every aspect of the game while Order has bonuses which look good on paper but didnt play that much role anymore.

    Most irrational thing is for me the extra yields for improvements. While you get TWELVE yields for nearly every tile if you are able to build a wind plant.... you get only ONE by chosing Order..... after youve already got 3 for chosing Imperialism or Industry. Make no sense to me.
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    For the sake of balance, I think its okay if ideologies lean towards underwhelming. It just gives more time for civs to try and catch a snowballing civ.
    The policy that allows you to buy spaceship parts is really iconic, so I hope you don't remove it. Space procurements could just allow purchasing, without other bonuses. In addition, increasing their cost is an obvious option to weaken this ability (but a small increase won't change my opinion much). Freedom in general doesn't have a lot of science.

    When it come to bulbing GE for use on spaceship parts, I have to 100% disagree on order not being weak. This ability is super underwhelming, it is the problem. I think the parts could be a little bit cheaper (in terms of hammers) in general.
     
  13. Coffee Monopoly

    Coffee Monopoly Warlord

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    Part of the problem is that bulbing GEs just sucks ass in general.
     
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  14. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I would like to see all +X to UI Tile Yields made to 3.

    I am noticing a general lack of Gold on Order, poor Commies. Is it really necessary to have all these +100% towards these specific Buildings?

    Why was the Distress reduction on the Motherland Calls made Local? The Global reduction on Distress made the Wonder more competitive with it's counterparts.

    Peace, Land, and Bread should be +20% Food or +15% Food and +X Food per something.

    Communism's bonus Production towards Wonder would be great much earlier, when there were Wonders to build.

    5 Year Plan should be a T1 like the other Policies that improve UI's.

    Great Leap Forward should be be 1 Free Technology, Great Scientist, and Great Engineer. This frees up Spaceflight Pioneers for something else.

    The Double Spy stealing could be moved to Worker's Facilities. Or have it give +X Coal and Aluminum.

    Academies of Sciences ought to drop the Illiteracy reduction and grant a bonus to Great Engineer and Scientist points.

    On Cultural Revolution, the use of Diplomats for Tourism isn't something that is buffed by Policies, is it?

    People's Army could give X% towards Land Units, boosting the Military Academy's effect or more Supply. Or better yet, something that helps them fight. Maybe more Healing?

    Draft Registration does better than the Order Policies when it comes to Warfare. Freedom also has B-17's. All Ideologies need some form of self-defense.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Do I want to give Peace, Land, Bread the chance to actually get new land (because as you rightly said, most civs are maxxed out on land at this point), in a way that is cool and interesting...and a way to snag resources without having to war. Yep I do.
     
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  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think this highlights an important aspect of balancing ideologies. The buffs to wind and hydro plants (agribusiness too, though to a lesser extent) have caused huge inflation in late game yields.

    I think we need to determine if these buildings are actually here to stay before we really heavily rework ideologies.

    I have a really hard time understanding the wind plant in particular (how does a source of electricity give so much science to grassland farms?). I can handle weak flavor if its good for gameplay, but I don't really see how this is good for gameplay. It just seems like a big middle finger to cities without eligible tiles.

    The agribusiness's status means that farms laugh at mines/lumbermills, so those buffs are pretty irrelevant.
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I just put in a post earlier in the thread that I think shows that lumbermills still look good even with the current Agribusiness, though if you disagree with the assumptions I made let me know.
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Your assumptions do a great job of incorporating easy to miss details, but.....
    I think you can assume a triangle for farms (it is far more common that I work a farm with at least 1 adjacency bonus, compared to farms without any at all). I totally forgot that lumber mill triangles even exist, and even if you plan the best you can, they will usually happen less frequently. Regardless, if imperialism is a factor there is no comparison (which is like 1/3 games).

    I am going by memory here, but I recall my farms having more yields than your post indicates. Quite a few more, but that's just memory. I have to say I'm personally just not really satisfied with the late game status of wind plants and agribusiness, and I think those buildings affect ideologies a lot.
     
  19. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    I'd like to chime in with my own experiences (of course, keep in mind I play huge maps, either on emperor or inmortal).
    For huge maps I find freedom to be the best ideology overall (more global happiness yields, and the votes you get from the t3 tenet can help you stay in the top for world congress proposals, depsite having diplo players, statue of liberty is a very good wonder, yield inflation has only made the policy that granted +5 yields to GPI weaker, but nonetheless it can be good if you settled a low amount of cities despite map size. Yields to buildings are not tied to having any specific ressource, only problem would probably not having oil to make B52. You also get extra supply, and full xp on purchase, all in all it's very nice ideology with varied benefits. May not be that suited to be on the aggression side, but as I said, you have tools for science/diplo/culture wins, and good tools to defend yourself (extra city defense, B52 and extra supply, all very nice in my opinion).
    Autocracy is another good one, if you are going for war/domination the ideology is the best, the extra xp from elite forces is very powerful (insane if you managed to get an oil monopoly on top), if you have a civ with UI you can get good science yields to help with illiteracy thanks to millitary industrial complex (still a good policy even without UI mind you), and the T3 tenet for airports is extremely powerful for conquest, being able to have more planes and move troops freely from one front to another (even newly conquered cities) is an extremely powerful tool. All in all, although autocracy is mostly geared for war, you have some ok tools for diplo if you want (mostly to keep others in check though), and some of the policies are very fun and powerful, like lebensraum. Third alternative + zealotry is also a very strong combo and will make it very easy to get monopolies on strategic resources, all very good tools for war .I find the ideology wonder Prora to be extremely weak the bigger the map gets, and it requiring coast can be somewhat annoying, but you do get some culture from it on the long run if you war so it's ok.
    Now Order, probably the weakest of all ideologies in my experience, why? The tools you get seem to be geared to be on a more defensive state of mind, and also to help you keep your lead, see policies like double agents, guerilla warfare, nationalization (this one is incredible for wide play though, being able to totally bypass the AI bans to have corporations is great).
    I'd like to list the policies I find good in Order:
    -Spaceflight Pioneers (situational)
    -Party leadership isn't bad, not stellar but it's 5 culture and science per city.
    -Nationalization (great for wide, sucks for tall, but the potential on huge maps is insane)
    -Guerilla Warfare (situational, but if you are winning people are probably declaring on you and you can make good use of it)
    -Great Leap Forward (situational, but can help you close a science game)
    -Communism (if tied with mercantilism).
    Rest of the policies are imho mediocre, and the policies tied to factories are terrible because coal is not always abundant, and is already used for other buildings / units. Note that in the 6 policies I listed, I would only always take Nationalization for huge maps, and maybe Guerilla Warfare, rest are way too situational. The wonder for Order is also very weak in my opinion, of course you won't skip it because it's still a free +1 policies but compared to the other 2 I can't help but think the weakest ideology got the weakest wonder.
     
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  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Well, I've put together a blueprint for a rework of the power plants and it includes reducing their yields on tiles overall. The highest yields per tile reduced to 9 and is only on Hydro plants in my proposal.

    I agree that the late game yield inflation is out of hand, but I would go further to say that it puts too much of a finger on the scale for very specific map types and civ start biases. In the current system, power plants punish coastal start biases pretty harshly
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019

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