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Going for Gold: Ideologies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The balance points we have to maintain is:

    1) Balance the overall yields for a good gameplay experience.
    2) Ensure a buildings yields are worth the hammers it costs to build that building. Aka "good mouthfeel".

    Personally if we think end game yields are too high...I think its time to start dropping buildings. End game buildings need significant yields to pull their weight, and if those yields are too high, than lets just drop the building. Maybe powerplants should just fall off the face of the earth. I would much rather have fewer and cooler buildings, than more buildings that don't really move the needle.

    I'm going to start a new thread on this topic, as this thread is already complex enough without adding building adjustments in the mix
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    What if we shift to Space Procurements allowing investment instead of outright purchase?

    G
     
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This seems a good place to start. The other parts of the policy aren't really that great, this is the only piece of the policy that actually "matters".
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    This is exactly what I have been pushing for. Yay. Here is what Space Procurement currently does:

    Space Procurement:
    May buy Spaceship parts with gold.
    Allows you to build Spaceship Factories in half the usual time.
    +10% Science from Research Labs.

    The first part of the policy completely nullifies the second part of the policy right now. Why would I build spaceship factories if I can buy spaceship parts outright? Making it so parts are only 25%-50% completed by investment makes the policy more balanced and more coherent.
    The science is nice, but it's not a very big bonus for so late in the game.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Beautiful solution.
    Yes, effectively the plants punish coasts, tundra and desert, which is dumb.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I did an actual in my latest game to see how Great Leap Forward compared to Spaceship Pioneers. This is a progress game but I have Civilized Jewlers so lots of GP, and I do have rationalism for full GS awesomeness.

    At the time I got my 3rd tier (which honestly was a bit late, I was cultured lagged this game):

    With Great Leap Forward: 35,332 worth of science
    Spaceship Pioneers: 9,266 science (for the 1 GS).

    With Spaceship Pioneers I also get 700 science for every new GP. By these numbers it would take 37 GP to catch up in science. I am expecting a few more assuredly, but I think I can safely say that GLF wins the science race in this particular game.

    This is not for me to say Spaceship Pioneers is bad, I have had games where I have had more GS early and so more academies that would boost those numbers. Further, though the GE benefit of accelerating parts is much weaker than Freedom's benefit, it still accelerates the parts at a time when I tend to get production restrained instead of science (aka it directly helps me win the game). But to me it does show that in certain practical games (this is a competitive game at the moment on Immortal) that GLF is just fine as a tier 3 benefit.
     
    lunker likes this.
  7. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Can we change the "Build in half the usual time" to the more appropriate "+100% Production towards", on Policies such as: Worker's Facilities and Space Procurement? (minor nitpick)
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Thinking more about order. Communism gets a pass from me probably only because I also tend to go industry with Order. If I also went progress, I can stack 85% discount on building investment and60% completion.

    compared to military industrial complex (-33% unit purchase cost), a progress/industry/autocracy player can get 93% discount on all units, including diplomats. A building is 1 and done, but autocracy can pump out an endless stream of diplomats at very little cost. I don’t think a building bonus carries the late game like a unit bonus does. I’ve already related that I think MIC is the single most potent policy in the game for a diplo victory.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Some ideas to spruce up Order:
    • Bring back % building maintenance reduction. Order’s lack of gold is killing it, especially for iron curtain civs
    • Give them a mechanic to trigger more unhappiness in other empires. Nothin wrong with their bonus to tourism for unhappy civs in theory, but the AI’s ability to never be sad hurts Order’s viability
    • Give Order a building unlock - if buildings are supposed to be order’s core flavor they are currently doing a poor job of showing it
    • Have order augment processes. Power to the people, make their ideology empower their labour.
    • Give Order a unique tourism process - in the same vein, if Order is the production ideology, give CV players something to do with all their production.
    • Give order a bonus to power plants. Actually I wish all ideologies would get some bonus to plants, but it is especially relevant to order.
    • Give Order some way to leverage its population into straight military units. Give us some of that People’s Army, give us a way to kill 2 of every 3 young men in defence of the motherland
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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  11. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Yes, please.

    Certain Policies do reflect this concept: Freedom has bonuses to Specialists, Order gains Science from Factories, Autrocracy has Military Industrial Complex.

    What is Draft Registration (+50% Supply from pop).
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  13. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    What I was referring to is the ability to get more Supply from Pop. Should have clarified that.
     
  14. cerk

    cerk Chieftain

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    Draft registration is pretty bad at supply from pop. I think supply from pop is bad in general. I had about 25 supply in information era and about 28 in atomic. I had built the Brandenburg gate, Himeji castle and the Great wall giving me about 18 supply. 2 supply from the armoury, (possibly 1 from barracks?) I was looking at 5-8 supply generated by a 44 pop city even with draft registration.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Honestly I have no idea how the supply from pop is even calculated, anyone know the formula?
     
  16. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Totally anecdotal, but I just won a Polynesia game going Progress-Artistry-Industry-Order via tourism and was wayyy happier than everyone else. So you can currently get use out if that tourism policy but no idea how common that is. Having said all that, causing unhappiness in other civs sounds like a fun mechanic.
     
  17. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    I think the supply you can get from one city is always limited, the game is meant for you to have more cities and use the supply acordingly, leaving some areas more vulnerable. At least that's my view on it, and tall always suffers from this (they do have a more compact empire, and can cover it much better with planes in exchange, remember planes do not use supply), but this means you won't have many areas you can leave unatended.

    While I can't speak for standard size maps, for huge maps pop makes a big difference in the late game.
    I took a look at my latest game, and my supply looks like this:
    Spoiler Spoiler Title :
    Supply


    From here, I have:
    -37 Barracks
    -35 Armories
    -35 Military academies
    -18 supply from wonders (brandenburg, himeji, great wall), and around 14 from citadels
    So 139 flat supply, 206 supply from pop for a total of 345.
     
    cerk likes this.
  18. GeneralAmadeus

    GeneralAmadeus Chieftain

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    I have been playing VP for about 2 years now and decided to give my opinions about some things to help balance the game. I mainly go for autocracy or freedom so my suggestions here are about those 2.
    Autocracy could have a bit more military focus since right now I take freedom half the time for the B17 bombers. Their finest hour is a bit better than Air supremacy and is available earlier which is important if you are nearing radar but can not manage the required policies for Air supremacy in time. Also the bomber are a bit better for attacking civs overall. Normally I only take Air supremacy because I do not have enough oil and that is often solved by Third alternative or Commerce raiders. My proposed solution would be to give air units a free range promotion in addition to the normal things.
    Elite forces
    could use a bit of a boost. Personally I would upgrade it to 20 free XP and make Brandenburg gate also give 20 XP, that way getting both would give new units an extra level. Since previous levels each only took a building getting a policy and a wonder not being enough for a level makes them feel kind of weak.
    Lightning warfare
    is a bit weak for a tier 2 policy giving 15% bonus for attacking with armor or gunpowder units. At this point most of these units already get a 50%-100% bonus from upgrades and other things so 15 only when attacking is not much. the movement bonus for armor units is also not much since they already have a lot of movement and the ZOC rarely makes a difference since gunpowder units have 2 MOV anyway. Instead it could give 1 MOV to gunpowder and armor units, and +20% attack to ranged units.
    Total war
    is not bad but maybe change it to 20% bonus to military PROD instead of 25% to land units. By the time I get it only about 20-40% of the unit PROD goes to land units.

    As for freedom I do not really know what to change. Most of it seems fine.
    The new deal could use a boost of some kind. Maybe give farms +1 gold.
    Universal suffrage could get +10 GA points in the capital.
    Treaty organization maybe bump influence gain from 4 to 5 or 6.
    On a somewhat unrelated note how about moving discovering oil to explosives. I have several times researched combustion only to discover i do not have oil and lose the ability to make lancers without being able to make tanks.
    ALSO: A big thank you to all the developers of VP. You have made an awesome mod for a great game. This feels less like a mod and more like the 3rd expansion civ 5 never got.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  19. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    Can't say I share your thoughs on everyting, specially on buffing already very good policies.
    Air Supremacy does give you the zero (worse than the b-17 imho), but it also gives you airports instantly for free everywhere. This is an incredible mobility tool, both on the offensive and defensive aspect of the game, allowing you to buy well trained mercenaries from your best cities (heroic epic or/and orders) and move them on the same turn to have them help defend/attack. I think commerce raiders could get the free promotion (as they already have one for the water units) if people felt autocracy is weak (imho its not).
    Elite forces is also already one of the best T1 tenets (extra xp on combat is very powerful, and if you get brandenburg you only need orders for your cities to make level 4 units, very strong in combination with zealotry/merc units as you can produce medic 2 units instantly, or cover 2 units, or units with stalwart among other things).
    Lightning warfare is not that bad, the attack bonus is not that great, but the GG movement and the ZOC can be very helpful if.

    On freedom, I personally think the ideology is already very strong, but if people felt buffing treaty organization could be helpful I don't see why not (personnaly I don't believe this will make any difference in late game diplo though, you are moving in ranges of 500-2500 influence, 1-2 more per turn isn't really gona cut it for me). I also think +1 gold on farms with new deal isn't gonna cut it, if you are taking new deal it's because you are playing tall and want your GPI tiles to be really competitive (less competitive duel to yield inflation in late game and other buffs to normal improvements), you'll probably work little amount of farms, and if you want to go all out on farms you probably built the agribusiness. Universal suffrage is imho already a good policy, but I don't think 10 GA points will make or break the policy, if people felt it was lacking I don't see why not.
    Right now for me arsenal of democracy is probably the weakest policy for freedom, rest all are pretty good (albeit some have niche uses but that's ok).
     
    Gokudo01 likes this.
  20. GeneralAmadeus

    GeneralAmadeus Chieftain

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    When you get the airports you already have railroads and fast tanks so the mobility for land units is not that important. Half the time I take Police state, Martial spirit or Third alternative and then go back to the industrial era trees. Spending 3 policies to get free airports and slightly better fighters is just not worth it. Also my main problem with the Autocracy tree is that most of the time I pick Freedom if going for conquest and go back to the industrial era trees after getting Their finest hour. The science, production or happiness bonuses are just more useful than what little I can get from the autocracy tree after the first few picks. What I would like for autocracy to do is grant more useful bonuses to combat since i can get better bonuses to other things from other trees.
    Lightning warfare is pretty bad. Only about 10%-15% of my military is gunpowder or armor units and half the time the do not attack so they can soak damage to protect the ranged units. For comparison the crusader spirit belief is way more useful than this and you get it long before a tier 2 ideology policy. The honor policy gives +10% strength to ALL unit along with some free units and war weariness reduction. If you did not start with the authority tree in the beginning then taking that can be more useful than going for autocracy.
    But I do agree that the freedom ideology is strong enough. The things i mentioned in my previous post just happen to be some things that i feel are kind of underpowerd compared to the other options in that tree and could use a bit of a boost to make the more viable choices. Treaty organization might actually be fine since you take it for the votes but The new deal feels sort of crap, especially since at that point you are likely using your GP for instant yields.
     

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