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Going for Gold: Ideologies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I use to be a hater of air supremacy, but I finally gave it its due, and it’s just amazing. Absolutely worth it’s tier 3 status.
     
  2. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    Air Supremacy can be extremely powerful on maps like Continents or any maps with a lot of water to cross but still amazing on other maps. On Continents and you need to conquer another continent, the ability to airdrop your units instantly makes reinforcing your front line very easily. Free airport shows up in newly captured cities so you can capture a city and immediately airdrop units with full health around it to prevent the enemy from recapturing it while maintaining the momentum to keep pushing. I think people underestimate how powerful this can be.
     
  3. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    Airports also boost considerably the number of planes the city can host, and planes are among the most important units late-game... And you can bring more planes to a just-conquered city.
    Air Supremacy is definitely great and does not need a boost IMO.
    Elite Forces is also great as-is.

    Universal Suffrage seems fine to me. It's needed to get permanent-Golden Age nowadays.

    I agree the following are subpar, but overall they only need a small boost:
    - Lightning Warfare is worse than Elite Forces (which is lower-tier).
    - The New Deal (+6 or +7 instead of +5?)

    I almost never take Total War and I don't find it easy to evaluate. For instance, is the bullying bonus needed to bully allied CS in the late game? If so, that makes it a prerequisite of sorts to Tyranny.

    My inclination would actually be to remove a few warmongering tools from Autocracy to give them to Order which is supposed to support a Domination victory too.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Order is definitely better than it was, but it’s still not quite there yet.

    It’s just not viable for a cultural victory. Only freedom has the power. Cultural revolution is doubled up on creative expression.

    It’s supposed to be competitive for a domination victory, and while it has a few decent military policies, it only actually has 4 in total: guerilla forces, People’s Army, Resettlement, and Iron Curtain.

    Guerilla forces is the only Order policy that strengthens your units’ combat effectiveness. It’s a terrific policy, and it’s very, very, alone.

    people’s army is still a small bonus, and even with the latest buffs it’s not a strong military policy because it only offers slightly faster military academies, which isn’t a durable military edge.

    resettlement and Iron curtain both boost your ability to administer newly conquered cities, but their bonuses are mutually exclusive. Neither of these tenets actually helps you conquer, but maybe you will lose less momentum from :c5unhappy:unhappiness? If you can take the happiness hit or are just going to puppet, then neither of these policies is relevant.

    all-in-all, Freedom’s combination of Draft Registration (full XP on purchases and massive supply boost), Universal Healthcare (free healing from hospitals in all cities) and Their Finest Hour (B-17s) combine to give Freedom a much more potent warmonger edge than order
     
    Omen of Peace likes this.
  5. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I think it would be interesting if Iron Curtain let you capture Cities with more Health, it would let you retain Cities better.

    Order is the only Ideology w/o a +X% towards Military Units.

    Perhaps Order should get free Air Defense I Promotion to counteract Freedom and Autocracy's Air UU's.

    Guerrilla Warfare could benefit from something such as more Healing from Pillaging or maybe just increase the XP granted.

    +1 on Lighting Warfare not being better than Elite Forces. Maybe move Lightning Warfare to Order so that it benefits their Guerrilla Fighters.

    Total War: Bullying CS late game does not give meaningful Yields, even it Medieval, the Yields are lacking.

    New Deal needs to have higher numbers, or maybe it's not good to compare it to Party Leadership's 25 Yields per City.
     
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Some changes in Order are in my eyes completely unnecessary. Which problem do the free buildings solve? Free buildings in some of your cities only give 5 cities 3-5 turns free time to do something else. Those cities which are on most times already leading in infrastructure, and every city behind the 5th city? Those need maybe 10 turns or more.

    Iam also not the friend of a CV Order ideology, cause it causes inner problems. As long as external trade routes are so powerful and necessary for a CV, you would have to sacrifice 2 very strong tenets (offices = 2 franchises and +200% internal trade route yields) to stay online. If Order gets such a boost in tourism you didn't need any or only few trade routes to win a CV, why not going tall tradition and then still use all trade routes for tourism?

    Its hard to believe that a nation behind an iron curtain is able to attract a lot of tourism, especially from not same ideology nations.
    Why not making the Order ideology able to convert other nations better than anyone else and be more resistant to other nations ideological pressure and tourism? (like Kuba or Somalia started to following the Russian way)
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Resettlement is a bit ungainly... it is mutually exclusive with you big tier 3 warmonger policy, and at this late stage the increased razing speed in autocracy is more valuable if you are resettling. Here’s an idea for a replacement:

    Patriotic War (replaces Order’s Resettlement)
    +33%:c5production: production towards Armor Units and all Armour units gain the Stalwart Promotion. -25%:c5unhappy: unhappiness from War Weariness.

    Martial spirit (autocracy)
    War weariness removed (moved to patriotic war)
    No partisans while razing moved here (from old resettlement)

    As and I would like a change to people’s Army. I am not in the same camp as @BiteInTheMark, I think X number of free buildings is fine. At the least it saves you dozens of gold and some turns of production. I think that 3 different policies doing X free buildings and +100%:c5production: is a bit repetitive. I think we can do better.

    Option 1:
    +5:c5culture: culture and +1:c5happy: from Public Schools. +1:c5citizen:Population and A free Unit for every 10 :c5citizen:Citizens in all Cities.

    Option 2:
    3:c5culture: and 1:c5happy: from Public Schools. Can build Commissariats.
    upload_2020-1-2_8-15-14.png

    Commissariat
    900:c5production:
    5:c5production:5:tourism:1:c5happy:
    -5%:c5unhappy: from all unhappiness sources
    -5%:c5unhappy:Empire size modifier
    +15%:c5production: Production and +10 XP from Military units in this city.

    basically, commissariats give all the bonuses of a public works project in the city, with a small additional boost to military units. Also gives a small push for tourism.

    There’s nothing wrong with cultural victory as a concept for Order; it’s far less work than trying to somehow make Order viable for Diplo victory at this late hour. I really don’t think we can have this discussion until Great Leap Forward is bumped down to tier 2 and a tier 3 tenet towards a third victory condition is made. There is no reason to have two tier 3 Science victory tenets
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    Vhozite likes this.
  8. GeneralAmadeus

    GeneralAmadeus Chieftain

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    (A)dd – New components get added to the policy.
    (M)odify – Changes only existing values or bonuses.
    (C)hange – Out with the old, in with the new.

    Starting with autocracy here is what I think the Ideologies should look like after thinking about it for a while.
    TIER I
    Lebensraum (A): Increase border growth by 15%
    New World Order (M): culture 3>4, prod 5>8
    Military-Industrial Complex (M): sci 3>4 or +3 sci to manufactory
    Elite Forces (C): +20 free XP to units (no XP gain bonus anymore)

    TIER II
    Commerce Raiders (A): Free great admiral.
    Total War (M): +25% to land units > +20% to military units
    Lightning Warfare (C): Move to TIER III, +1 move to gunpowder and armor units, +20% attack strength to archery and siege units, +20 free XP to units built in every city. Also rename it to Blitzkrieg. I just think it sounds better.

    TIER III
    Air Supremacy: Move to TIER II.

    Freedom is not supposed to be good at conquest victory so a lot of things that would help in that area have been removed because the other ideologies have nothing or almost nothing to help the victory type not suggested for them. Autocracy has no policy that helps sci victory and order only has Double agent that can be useful for diplomatic victory. Not really sure what Draft registration and Arsenal of Democracy should change to but having one very good (if not the best) military policy is enough.

    TIER I
    Draft Registration (C): Farms and mines +1 gold, +2 gold for every food and prod building. Rename to Supply and Demand.

    TIER II
    New Deal (M): GP Yield 5>8
    Arsenal of Democracy (C): +20% defensive strength for land units within own borders.

    TIER III
    Treaty Organization (M): Influence gain 4>6

    I have less of an idea what to do with Order but I will try.

    TIER I
    Peoples Army: +50% unit supply. +20 free XP to gunpowder units. Forge and workshop give +2 culture and prod.

    TIER II
    Resettlement (C): +30% prod to Armor Units and all Armour units gain the Stalwart Promotion. Gain 3 free oil. Rename to Patriotic War. Most of this is stolen from pineappledan with a bit of changes from me thrown in.

    TIER III
    Spaceflight Pioneers (C): Change it into a culture victory policy. Each Ideology should have a TIER III for every victory they are good for.
     
  9. Vhozite

    Vhozite Chieftain

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    Autocracy isn’t supposed to help you pursue Science Victory though is it? I think it’s the same thing with Order and Diplo Victory. Freedom isn’t supposed to be good at war but it does seem like it has slightly better war tenets than Order. As a warmonger right now I would rank the Ideologies as:

    Autocracy>>>Freedom>Order

    Order definitely could use a buff in the war/domination department if we want it to be the 2nd Warmonger Ideology.
     
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Order has too many all-rounder tenets. And one of them is a tier 3 (Great Leap Forward). It bears repeating, that is a tier 2 ability and Order needs a CV tier 3.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Tier 2 with an appropriate reduction. I've checked it in a few of my games, I'm generally able to get a lot more science out of GLF than Spacefleet Pioneers.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Spaceflight pioneers does other things though. GLF is entirely dependent on how late you can push adopting it back to get those the most :c5science:value, and it literally only gives you those techs. GLF is most obviously coded a SV tenet, and having 2 SV tenets is ridiculous, especially with CV tenets in such short supply. However, CV needs techs to unlock internet/the final wonder, etc. Diplo needs Globalization to finish, Military can snag those final military upgrades, so GLF can be seen as a flexible all-rounder tenet too. An all-rounder lvl 3 tenet is as nonsense as having 2 SV victory tenets though, so no amount of reframing this tenet justifies its placement.

    GLF is powerful, but not as powerful as SFP, and it's not focused enough on 1-2 victories to deserve the 3rd tier slot.
    If it were moved to 2nd tier, it could be reduced to 1 free technology and a more durable second effect, like a bonus to processes or trigger a Golden age and give an additional +20%:c5production: on empire during Golden Ages.
     
  13. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Man I was sure that Freedom couldn't be better than Order for war but I just looked over the tenets and I have to agree. In terms of actually fighting, Freedom has the stronger tenets.

    However, I will say that Order is better for capitalizing on being wide, and warmongers tend to be wide for obvious reasons. If you're already somewhat successful in conquest then Order helps you capitalize on that success better than Freedom I think.
     
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Last version I went draft registration first pick with Freedom because 2 people declared war on me at the same time. Draft Registration slaps. It slaps my whole body. There's no Freedom game where you aren't doing a massive disservice to yourself by ignoring it. Full XP on purchased units is guaranteed to mess anyone up.
     
  15. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    This tenet is so completly wrong placed. I remember when Ive picked it with a 5-city-Morocco and immidiatly got around 15-20 more supply cap (Yeah my cities were big), and cause I had enough money, I was able to rofl stomp my enemies with a 7 turn long purchased army into the ground.
    I idnt even think its historically correct, cause, why should draft scripted people thrown into the war be as good as long trained man from an autocratic empire?
    A purchase cost reduction would make sense, ok, and maybe a flat supply increase? 10? I think Gazebo said, this tenet exists to enable small, tall freedom empires to defend themself against harded enemies.
    But this tenet can be also used for a wide empire to overwhelm enemies with a huge mass of units an autocratic player couldnt field.
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    When Draft registration's rework was originally floated, I suggested that maybe it could give +15-20 XP flat XP to purchased units instead of cencelling the XP purchase penalty.

    With a barracks/Armory, +20XP on purchase nets 2 more XP on purchase. With a Military academy, you are only 8 XP behind a built unit. Obviously you fall more an more behind with other XP sources (Royal Library, Orders, Brandenburg). However, units that don't take XP penalties on purchase would get 20XP more. So Zealotry, Spain ships, and Mercenary units would treat this as a flat +20XP boost. Considering 'Murica's predilection for *ahem* """""Contractors"""""", it seemed like a fitting Freedom bonus.
     
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  17. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Makes not really that much sense, that a instantly created unit of soldiers is able to has as close as much experience as a long trained (constructed) unit, or? Only from the view of logic.
    What I simply dislike is the fact that Freedom gets with Draft Registration and Their Finest Hour 2 very powerful tools for warfare and makes Freedom ideology a "jack-of-all-trades". (why has the "peaceful" freedom ideology the city attack bomber and not the zero, which would be much better in defending you against enemy attacks?)
    I could imagine, that going Freedom with a warmonger civ could be sometimes more rewarding, than picking Autocracy, atleast if you are so powerful, that you didnt really need the improvements in military power.
    Most of the bonuses from freedom are so universal, that everyone and every victory condition is covered by the freedom ideology, while Order is a bit more special and Autocracy needs a lot of action to get your rewards.
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree. I am ok with lowering GLF to Tier 2 as long as it receives a proper downgrade.


    In terms of Draft Registration, I think the more important bonus is the supply....because often Tall players going freedom are desperate for supply if they didn't bag key wonders. So I personally would rather the policy focus on that, and take away the combat benefits (maybe a purchase reduction as others mentioned).
     
  19. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Massing an Army of about 90 Units and just overwhelming 2-3 AI at the same time lacks synergy with the Freedom Ideology. It tends to give me around +50% more Supply when I have taken it, say going from 50 to 75 Supply. It is rather satisfying to pull of a successful conquest of multiple AI. There's always the benefit of conquering large Tradition Cities and knowing they will soon be useful because of all the Specialist bonus in Freedom.
     
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  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Purchase reduction is too powerful for diplo wins. -33 gold purchase on autocracy is absolutely choice
     

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