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Going for Gold: Ideologies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    You could limit it to Melee/Gun/Ranged units. The units you mainly lose on the battlefield and need replacements. Simple fresh meat for the meat grinder.
    Tell me one Freedom tenet which didnt help you, even if you are conquering your neighbors?
    All freedom tenets have atleast a small advantage as a side kick, which helps everyone.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  2. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Can't think of one, good economy always helps the new Cities that will be taken.
     
  3. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Is it possible to get an actual value of yields listed for Lebenstraum? I think it the only tenet that doesn't actually tell you what it does.
     
  4. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    It seems that Treaty Organization actually gives 8 Votes on standard maps.
     
  5. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Warlord

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    to add a comment after the balance poll discussion. I'd find it sad if draft registration goes away for freedom :) Progress - (even tradition) -statecraft-industry-freedom was a very fun way to conquer the world based on money and protecting external trade routes, and quite a different style from others, more opportunistic, less constant war.

    I know it's not a common opinion, but I think the 3 ideologies should allow for the 4 victory conditions, only fitting different ways to achieve them. Freedom shouldn't lose its perks to win domination, it's the other ideologies that should be allowed to achieve all victories with their specific playstyles. Order seems a few tweaks away from being adapted to the 4 victory types. I'm less used to autocracy gameplay, but maybe they could use something to help a science victory in a bloody way.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  7. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Warlord

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    well, draft registration was maybe OP for a lvl 1 tenet but it made freedom domination -based on protecting external trade routes- feel quite distinct from the other gameplays. If distinct feeling was already achieved, why not at least preserve it in some way?

    Order might be viable at diplomatic victory just by being wide, but something unique could be to extend the benefits of guerrilla warfare and fighters to allied city states (or units in allied CS territory, if not already the case?). Or make some raw yields tenets benefit allied CS. You could then have a very specific and "internationalist" diplomatic style, no perk to gain influence but better at defending CS.

    I'd guess a balanced science perk for autocracy is harder to find, because conquest is about removing competition anyway. But it could be something like: military-industrial complex, each time a unit requiring oil, aluminium or uranium is built, a % of the production is transferred as science. Not useful if you want to keep upgrading the same army in a victorious domination run, but benefits from a stalemate grind where you have to replace units.
     
    Melchizedek likes this.
  8. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I just finished a game using Freedom (lost to the Maya who achieved a science victory) and it seems OK overall.

    My only complaint is that Civil Society feels underwhelming? Like, IRL it's a pretty significant thing but mechanically it's kinda meh. You get food in your cities, particularly your capital if it is working lots of specialists which is nice. Mostly though I don't really care that much about city growth in the late-game though? Especially policies like Urbanisation (at Tier 1) and Universal Healthcare (at Tier 2) exist in the Freedom tree, Civil Society seems like a poor pick. In theory it might allow you to work more specialists in your cities, or work specialists while still growing, but it doesn't address what I care about when working lots of specialists - which is the unhappiness they produce.

    In terms of policies I like in the Freedom tree: I'm a fan of Universal Suffrage and Arsenal of Democracy.
     
  9. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I would say that Draft Registration should have kept some bonus to Supply.

    Civil Society does feel unnecessary with the other sources of Food from other Tenets.

    What if we swapped Siege I to Air Targetting I on B-17's to give Freedom more of a defensive focus?
     
    Aenigmata likes this.
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I just realized today that Military Industrial Complex does not give +3:c5science: to Forts anymore.

    When was this changed, and why? I really liked the ability to combine Imperialism and Autocracy to give 1:c5culture:5:c5science: to forts; they aren't a viable improvement otherwise.
     
  11. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    An intriguing point seeing as they're supposed to be viable as defence - but I can't say that I remember the last time I built one. In the vein of "the best defence is a good offence," simply having more yields is the best protection any of my cities can have.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I designed a civ around buffing forts into an ersatz UI, like how India buffs farms. I calibrated that civ while conscious of autocracy’s (former) synergy.

    Without the boost from Autocracy, I'm not sure why the Imperialism boost exists, or why any of the tech boosts exist. Unless used together, forts do not even come close to parity with the yields off boosted mines, villages etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
    Melchizedek and ElliotS like this.
  13. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I mainly use them as fillers on terrain where I can't build other stuff - i.e. desert tiles. Actually, I find them most useful for their ability to create canals. I do build some when my borders expand beyond the range I can work, but I rarely if ever use those.

    I agree we should revert the change. I think we should keep the other buffs regardless though.
     
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    It seems I unwittingly made Menin gate the saving grace of forts. I thought that wonder was going to push forts from good to great, not from bad to good.

    I suppose I will just roll back the change in Canada’s code in the short term? They’re the civ that care most about the balance of forts w.r.t everything else. It would be nice to have viable forts with ideology for everyone else, but for Canada it’s a nail in the coffin.

    I will say it again, if this change was ever discussed then I did not see it, and if I had I would have been vehemently against it. Removing that boost wasn’t justified, and doing it without so much as a patch note is even more so.
     
  15. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I also miss the 3 science for forts in autocracy - it was one of the few ways that autocracy could keep up in science.
     
  16. Delvemor

    Delvemor Chieftain

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    CrazyG likes this.
  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I'm going to bring this up again because it seems very unbalanced. In a lot of situations, Urbanisation is just straight up better than Civil Society.

    Urbanisation gives +4 :c5food: on Farms, Plantations, Camps, and Unique Improvements.

    Civil Society reduces the :c5food: consumed by specialists by 2.

    Let's look at the capital as an example, because that is where the specialist food cost is going to be felt the most. Even if your capital city is only working 6 food producing tiles (e.g. 6 farms), Urbanisation gives you 24:c5food:. You get the same net benefit from Civil Society if you are working 12 specialists. I guess that's possible - so far so good. However, if your capital is working 8 food-producing tiles (e.g. 2 camps, 2 plantations, and 4 farms), Urbanization gives you 32 :c5food:. You need to be working 16 specialists to get the same benefit from Civil Society. One of those seems much more likely than the other to me, but I guess it's not a big deal. Both policies are decent!

    Now consider you are playing any of the civs who have unique improvements. You're almost always going to prefer working those tiles to normal tile improvement, so you want your capital to be working at minimum 6 UIs and potentially as many as 10. Even if you only work a couple of camp improvements (e.g. Furs, Truffles, Ivory) and one plantation (which are common luxuries), or zero camps or plantations but 3 farms (for a total of 9 improvements), Urbanisation gives you 36 :c5food: or more. That means 18 specialists in order to Civil Society to break even. Even for civs without a UI, say you start in the Tundra, in a forest, in the jungle, or on flood plains. Or you're playing Ghandi! You're still going to be working a lot of farms, plantations, or camps.

    That's without even touching on non-capital cities where you will typically be working fewer specialists relative to the population of the city (and therefore working more land tiles relatively speaking).

    Am I missing something big here? Am I a food fanatic or super stingy on specialists? These two politices unlock at the same tier so they are directly competing with one another. They don't do anything other than provide food. To my eyes Urbanization is clearly the stronger policy.
     
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  18. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    Agreed, I never take Civil society, it's so underwhelming I never pick it, and even Urbanisation is rarely worth picking unless you have plenty of those improvements, food just isn't that important by that point and if a city needs food to work more specialists, one internal trade route and agribusiness usually suffices.
     
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  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Agreed, I don't know why these two aren't just combined. Urbanization is a "fair" tenet and Civil society is a "bad" tenet. If Urbanization gave both powers it would still be merely "good" as a tenet choice.

    That would open up a slot for civil society to do something different, which is great because I feel like Freedom could use a bit of sprucing up.
    I think it's weird that there are no ideology tenets that boost diplomats, and I think that makes the most sense on Freedom. I have been told by many users that diplomats are a bad game mechanic that has no function. I have seen this argument made repeatedly to say that Diplomats are a "lost cause", a useless, vestigial mechanic that the community should collectively try to ignore. I think that's kinda dumb, why not at least try to make Diplomats useful instead of denying they exist?
    Freedom already has Covert Action (+1 Spy. Rigging City State Elections and Coup chance doubled), so Freedom has no spy bonus vs major civs.

    What about this?
    Civil Society (could change name):
    :tourism:Tourism modifier for having a Diplomat in a foreign :c5capital:Capital doubled. Traded votes are tripled in power.

    So, Freedom diplomats help more with CV and make vote trading more powerful. Currently, vote trading is really only useful for ensuring that a civ doesn't vote against you, but this would make it useful as a way to push through the thing you want. each Vote trading agreement you make counts as 3 votes instead of 1 (multiplies power of that 1 vote; does not lock more votes from the other party)

    Also, Great Leap Forward was reverted again to 2 free technologies and no permanent bonus. I think that sucks, and I will once again take up the cause to get GLF changed or replaced with something else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I can agree with the urbanization merge idea. Urbanization I will sometimes take as Morocco but even then I never consider it a great ideology, and yeah the current civil society is not that strong. Together they could potentially provide enough oomph to be a decent one.

    I don't know about messing with the diplomat tourism power. The traded votes concept is interesting, would be curious to hear people's thoughts on the AI with that.

    GLF is a wonderful tenant, very strong, just fine as is.
     
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