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Going for Gold: Ideologies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Looking at Autocracy. I want to look at these two tenants.

    Total War: +25% prod on land units, +25% warscore, +25% easier for CS tribute.
    Martial Spirit: +25% attack for 50 turns, -25% war weariness, +100% raze speed

    I think they are both "fine" but a little watered down from what they could be. The land production bonus can useful, there is that portion of the game around industrial where my supply starts to go up and I need to fill it, but it tends to wane as the game goes on. And then for martial spirit, you get a combination of some nice permanent bonuses with a temporary bonus, and honestly those permanent bonuses feel a bit...."total war" ish. So what if we shuffled the abilities around a bit.

    New Proposal

    Total War: +25% warscore, +25% easier CS tribute, -25% war weariness, +100% raze speed.

    Martial Spirit: +25% attack, +33% prod on all units. War Weariness does not impact your unit production. These bonuses last for 50 turns.


    So with this idea, total war is now just a solid all around tenant for when you are at war, giving you benefits in lots of key areas. Its your "marathon" war tenant. Martial Spirit becomes the ultimate "sprint" war tenant. It gives you a big boost to your unit production to ramp up your military (in any unit you choose to build). And/Or you can use it to apply a big surge during war with the attack bonus, and the ability to maintain peak production no matter how the war goes.
     
    AndreyK likes this.
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The new ideology unit replacement thing is a huge buff to Order. There are no unique fighters or bombers in base VP, but there are lots of unique gun line units.

    Ethiopia will be able to build Mehal Sefari, and just a few turns later, research combined arms for a unit with Homeland Guardian, Capital distance Bonus, and Guerilla. Authority/Order civs can buy foreign legions and then upgrade them directly into Guerillas
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I don't like it. The %:c5production:production on total war is much more fitting, because Total war is mainly an economic policy. Likewise the Raze speed is out of place on Total War. The current distribution is much more sensible.

    I don't like a policy that is entirely composed of temorary buffs. I didn't like it in Vanilla, and I don't like it here. It does bring up another issue I have with Martial Spirit though, which is that 50 turns is too long. For a temporary buff, 50 turns is the entire remainder of the game 7/10 times.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    With the new buff to Stock Exchanges, I would like to take another look at Military Industrial Complex:
    -33% :c5gold:gold cost of purchasing or upgrading units.
    +3 :c5science:science from Defense Buildings, Citadels, and Unique Improvements.

    So, in addition to being the strongest UI buff of the 3 tenets, and a Autocracy's strongest :c5science:science Steroid, 33% gold reduction on unit purchases is strong as a military buff, and VERY strong as a diplo buff (unit purchases includes diplomats)
    @Gazebo says there is a cost reduction floor of -85% on gold purchases, and with Forbidden city (-15%) / Industry scaler (-30%) / MIC (-33%) / Stock Exchange (-20%), you can get -98%:c5gold:unit purchase reduction which is 13% above the cap; complete overkill.

    I propose the unit purchase reduction be nerfed to -20% or -25%. You can still reach the max cost reduction at this level, so total synergy is preserved, but it reduces the wasted overtuning on the combined cost reductions while also bringing an overly-powerful tenet back into line somewhat.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  5. AndreyK

    AndreyK Prince

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    20% would be enough, and still very good tenet
     
  6. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    I posted this on the 3-2 thread, but it's still partially on topic here:

    I don't like the current "(gold) cost reduction" mechanic as a whole. Most other similar mechanics increase the effectiveness of the yield instead, e.g. +25% GP points, +20% production to units. These are fine to stack additively. Meanwhile, cost reduction become better the more you stack them. If you already have Forbidden Palace, full Industry and Stock Exchange (40% cost), picking Military-Industrial Complex actually makes everything 67.5% cheaper (15% cost) even with the cap. In other words, the former 3 cost reductions give a +150% gold effectiveness towards units/buildings, and the MIC provides an additional +467% effectiveness towards buying units and +50% towards upgrading them.

    I know the wordings would be confusing if we use "gold effectiveness buff", but can we make the cost reduction multiplicative instead? Numbers can be adjusted.
     
    psparky likes this.
  7. Ranslee

    Ranslee Chieftain

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    Posted in the other threat before seeing this one :D

    In design, multiplicative positive modifiers and additive negative modifiers are always something to look out for, because they are pushing boundaries of the game when stacked.

    Unfortunately, the way the discount from Industry is increasing incrementally will make it difficult to just state it as 'multiplied by x0.7'. Reducing the availability of discounts is probably the easiest option, possibly raising the hard cap to 25% (this is +300% purchase efficiency anyway, huge!).


    Keeping it at 25% would make it nicely in line with Order's Communism that affects buildings.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  8. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I'll disagree. We shouldn't nerf the tenet because of niche combinations. Military Industrial Complex is more often used for upgrading units than purchasing units. Outside of Authority, purchasing units still has the drawback of reduced XP. Military industrial complex at it's current strength allows for a player to switch to a focus on war by going Autocracy without requiring Imperialism in part because Military Industrial Complex offers some unit promotion reduction. Nerfing this because its theoretically possible to build Stock Exchanges is unnecessary.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    If you go Imperialism, MIC gives a combined -68% unit upgrade cost reduction and -33% unit purchase reduction.
    If you go Industry, MIC gives a combined -33% unit upgrade cost reduction and -63% unit purchase reduction.
    Either way, MIC gives a single big synergy with 2/3 of the Industrial trees, making your gold somewhere between 50% to 212% more efficient, before you factor in any other reductions from policies/buildings/wonders. As @azum4roll said, additive cost reductions are very potent.

    If you go back through this thread I have been calling for MIC to be nerfed for over a year; the tenet's relative power is way out of step with other choices. This new overlap/overkill is yet more reason to look at the policy again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
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  10. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Or perhaps to reconsider the stock exchange change.

    I'm unconvinced. Gold costs in late game are very difficult to keep up with absent these reductions.
     
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  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    To PADs concern, lets look at our tier 1 Autocracy list and see how they stack up.

    1) Elite Forces (A): Its a very solid war tenant, I really notice the difference in fast my units level, especially my ships.

    2) Futurism: If your going CV than clearly you should get this. Otherwise why bother. But I wouldn't consider it a direct competitor to MC as your going to use this in very niche games.

    3) Iron Fist (A-B): Really depends on your current standing. If you have a lot of vassals and CS, it can give tremendous benefit, but otherwise its just nice.

    4) Lebensraum (A): One of the true game changing tenants to me. It can redefine how you conduct warfare, make nigh unassailable positions almost routing to push through. But its not really an economic tenant, I honestly don't even know how much the bonus is for border expansion.

    5) New World Order (C): I have to be really really unhappy before I consider this over other things.

    6) United Front (C): I can't remember the last time I needed more supply playing Autocracy, and when CS have hundreds or thousands of influence, who cares about the decay.

    So in comparing them, I think why MC stands out is its a good solid economic tenant. It gives you a really nice springboard for your science production, and the cost reductions lets you quickly ramp up your military. Aka at the time you are taking your first tenant....this is generally the one I consider because its going to give you a lot of long term benefits. I would debate Iron Fist first depending on circumstance, or Lebensraum if I have the GGs and I want to make a big play right now....but MC is the go to.

    So is it OP? On the one hand, I don't think it makes the other Tier 1s look bad...I just think timing wise I am going to take it first because its a longer term kind of policy. I don't think it really pushes Autocracy over Order or Freedom....Order's worker facilities or hero of the people can also provide a really solid boost when you first get them (especially if you are super tight on coal which can happen from time to time). So I don't really see it as OP.

    On the other hand, I also don't think the nerf would suddenly kill it or make it bad. Personally I take it more the science myself, its one of the few science policies in the Autocracy tree, so it lets me keep some research pace while I start balloning my army. The price reduction is very good, but a small adjust to it would not change my opinion about the tenant.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I think you’re underestimating the value of MIC as a diplomatic victory tenet. With no other combining bonuses, 33% unit purchase means 50% more diplomatic units, which means 50% more :c5influence:influence, and it only goes up from there. If your plan was to aim for a diploV from the start, industry, stock exchange, and MIC combine for +588% :c5gold: to :c5influence:influence conversion

    the bottleneck is just having enough cities to buy from so you aren’t blocked by the purchase cool down.
     
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  13. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Lebrenauseum and Iron Fist are on the same tier as MIC. On deity, Lebrenauseum is worth +75% combat strength because of the difference between your own territory and enemy territory where warmonger penalties apply.

    Iron Fist varies depending on vassals but it can be a huge boost. Like 20% culture and science, which enables the next policy faster (which might make me take it first).

    I view this potential problem as a problem with the stock exchange, not this tenet. Undo that buff and give it something else. This thread is called going for gold, i.e. getting to good enough.
     
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  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So I realized that I did the "combo" during my last Dutch game without even realizing it. So I can confirm that buy prices don't go to 0. Here are some example buy prices for context with MC + Industry + Forbidden Palace + Stock Exchange.

    New Price (Original Price, %actual discount)

    Ambassadors: 360 (I need help here, I got to figure out what the late game buy price for the unit without discounts).
    Heavy Bomber: 730 (1340, 45%)
    Mech Inf: 830 (1510, 45%)
    Special Forces: 820 (1490, 45%)

    So the actual discount seems much less than the theory would indicate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
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  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    That just raises further questions.

    The database values are set as in the description in the policies/etc. So do cost reductions cap at 55% so what’s the point of even having so many reduction bonuses if they aren’t mutually exclusive, and users can be tricked into attempting to maximize synergies that actually do nothing?
     
  16. stii

    stii King

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    Are they maybe multiplicative rather than additive? So -25% -25% would only reduce the cost by 43.75% rather than 50%? No clue if that adds but but it seems possible.

    The fact they were all 45% does suggest a cap though I guess.


    Autocracy has lots of very powerful options, Lebrenauseum being the most powerful as it does everything. Getting 2k gold and hammers as well as a big chunk of land is rather powerful. You could even use it built a spaceship if you really wanted to.
     
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  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Code:
    //    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    int CvCity::GetPurchaseCost(UnitTypes eUnit)
    {
        VALIDATE_OBJECT
    
        CvUnitEntry* pkUnitInfo = GC.getUnitInfo(eUnit);
        if(pkUnitInfo == NULL)
        {
            //Should never happen
            return 0;
        }
    
        int iModifier = pkUnitInfo->GetHurryCostModifier();
    
        if (iModifier == -1)
        {
            return -1;
        }
    
        bool bIsSpaceshipPart = pkUnitInfo->GetSpaceshipProject() != NO_PROJECT;
    
        if (bIsSpaceshipPart && !GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).IsEnablesSSPartPurchase())
            return -1;
    
        int iCost = GetPurchaseCostFromProduction(getProductionNeeded(eUnit));
        iCost *= (100 + iModifier);
        iCost /= 100;
    
        // Cost of purchasing units modified?
        iCost *= (100 + GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).GetUnitPurchaseCostModifier());
        iCost /= 100;
    
    #if defined(MOD_DIPLOMACY_CITYSTATES_RESOLUTIONS)
        if (MOD_DIPLOMACY_CITYSTATES_RESOLUTIONS) {
            int iLimitSpaceshipPurchase = GC.getGame().GetGameLeagues()->GetSpaceShipPurchaseMod(getOwner());
            if(bIsSpaceshipPart && iLimitSpaceshipPurchase != 0)
            {
                iCost *= (100 + GC.getGame().GetGameLeagues()->GetSpaceShipPurchaseMod(getOwner()));
                iCost /= 100;
            }
        }
    #endif
    
    #if defined(MOD_BALANCE_CORE_PURCHASE_COST_INCREASE)
        if(MOD_BALANCE_CORE_PURCHASE_COST_INCREASE)
        {
            //Increase cost based on # of techs researched.
            int iTechProgress = (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).GetTeamTechs()->GetNumTechsKnown() * 100) / GC.getNumTechInfos();
    
            iTechProgress /= 2;
            if(iTechProgress > 0)
            {
                iCost *= (100 + iTechProgress);
                iCost /= 100;
            }
        }
    #endif
    
    #if defined(MOD_BALANCE_CORE_HAPPINESS_NATIONAL)
        if (MOD_BALANCE_CORE_HAPPINESS_NATIONAL)
        {
            if (pkUnitInfo->IsFound() || pkUnitInfo->GetCombat() > 0 || pkUnitInfo->GetRangedCombat() > 0 || pkUnitInfo->GetNukeDamageLevel() != -1)
            {
                //Mechanic to allow for production malus from happiness/unhappiness.
                int iTempMod = getHappinessDelta(true) * GC.getBALANCE_HAPPINESS_PRODUCTION_MODIFIER();
    
                if (GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).IsEmpireUnhappy())
                {
                    if (iTempMod > 0)
                        iTempMod = 0;
    
                    iTempMod += GC.getUNHAPPY_PRODUCTION_PENALTY();
                }
    
                //malus?
                if (iTempMod < 0)
                {
                    if (GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).IsEmpireVeryUnhappy())
                    {
                        iTempMod += GC.getVERY_UNHAPPY_PRODUCTION_PENALTY();
                    }
                    if (GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).IsEmpireSuperUnhappy())
                    {
                        iTempMod += GC.getVERY_UNHAPPY_PRODUCTION_PENALTY() * 2;
                    }
                    //If happiness is less than the main threshold, calculate city penalty mod.
                    if (iTempMod < GC.getBALANCE_HAPPINESS_PENALTY_MAXIMUM())
                    {
                        iTempMod = GC.getBALANCE_HAPPINESS_PENALTY_MAXIMUM();
                    }
    
                    iTempMod *= -1;
    
                    //Let's do the yield mods.           
                    iCost *= (100 + iTempMod);
                    iCost /= 100;
                }
            }
        }
    #endif
    
        if (MOD_BALANCE_CORE_PURCHASE_COST_INCREASE)
        {
            //Decrease base cost, then increase based on # of cities in empire.
            iCost *= 8;
            iCost /= 10;
        }
    
        // Make the number not be funky
        int iDivisor = /*10*/ GC.getGOLD_PURCHASE_VISIBLE_DIVISOR();
        iCost /= iDivisor;
        iCost *= iDivisor;
    
        return iCost;
    }
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I'm not the best code reader but nowhere in there did I see where GetHurryCostModifier() is defined, which I am assuming is where the cap is applied.
     
  19. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    One question: Nationalization Tenet should allow to construct Franchises in vassals right?. Because I'm unable to construct a Franchise in my vassal and that's making me miss 50% science...
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    pkUnitInfo->GetHurryCostModifier() is a unit-by-unit value that can manually tweak and adjust the gold cost of a unit. It is not the cap.

    G
     

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