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Going for Gold: Ideologies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    New Deal could give a free Great Person or add Science to GPTIs.

    Capitalism could be reworked into some TR bonusor a boost to Stock Exchanges.

    Civil Society could add Science to Specialists.

    Universal Suffrage could take Capitalism's Happiness per Specialist or add Science +X% during a Golden Age.

    But honestly, if their Tier 1 and 3 Tenets are strong enough, it should be balanced in the end. I would like to see Science added to one of the Tier 2's.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't know if this is the case.

    Right now Order seems really good to me because you just free everything in all your cities. If a civ is the culture leader going into ideologies, they can easily snowball well out of control with order.
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Honestly, more than Freedom needing a buff, Order just needs a nerf. Buffing Freedom to the level of Order would leave Autocracy weak, and buffing that would create a major disparity for early ideology adopters.

    G
     
    HalfEmptyMug, Gokudo01 and CrazyG like this.
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I could get behind that. Order does have a lot of solid meat.
     
  5. Legen

    Legen King

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    I can agree on that. I do think that some of Freedom's tier 2 tenets are nonetheless without use at the moment and could be put at least on Autocracy's level.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    One thought off the cuff. Instead of Order's 25% GP + 1 free one....you could go with 2 free GP. More immediate hit, but less long term benefit. I don't know if the math says that is actually stronger or weaker but it would differentiate the policy from freedom a bit more.
     
  7. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    I know that Gazebo is reluctant to buff Freedom, but honestly, the Avant Garde policy has always been kind of meh and boring, it's the kind of policy you'd pick as Arabia because you feel like you have to. I'm pretty sure it's downright weaker than Order's Hero of the People, even now, +9% GP rate doesn't really compare to a free one, especially when you can pick a Prophet or something and reap rewards from Holy Land.

    I don't know if this is too hard to implement, but it would be cool if this tenet were something like "Recieve a free Great Person for every civ you reach Influential Status with after adopting this policy. Each Great Person can only be chosen once". Encourages reaching Influential after the tenet is adopted rather than before, fits the thematic idea of Avant Garde well, and has obvious synergy with Freedom CV strategies.

    On a separate note, is two T3 tenets a good requirement for Culture Victory? I kind of feel like it should be just 27 policies, that way it doesn't force you to complete a certain ideology you don't want to.
     
  8. neo_arcadia

    neo_arcadia Warlord

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    Maybe because cultural victory is the most frequent victory I experience I have bias towards this opinion but I like that it forces you to invest heavily in your ideology. Many months ago, cultural victory is one of two earliest victory you can have besides domination and I feel that's too early. After CEP introduced I feel it's too late. With this new mechanism the timing now hits the sweet spot. It feels more difficult than many months ago but not requiring too much technology. I think it's in good spot.
     
  9. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    The Culture investment would be the same, it would just not pidgeon-hole you into an ideology and instead let you invest in Rationalism, Industry, Statecraft etc. instead. 27 policies equals the same amount of policies as 2 T3 tenets.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  10. neo_arcadia

    neo_arcadia Warlord

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    Exactly. This is one of the few rules that I am fine with pigeon-hole being a must. It's a good idea and good time to shows you a commitment towards winning. Being not flexible with Social Policy is a fair price to pay for cultural victory.
     
  11. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    It's not that much of a price, tbh. I would still gladly go for the T3 tenet...most of the time. But removing choice is not a good idea in my mind. The requirements for advancing to the next policy tree is 6, 12, 18 policies, not one whole tree...that makes things much more varied and interesting. It would be a shame to take that away imo.
     
    Grabbl and CppMaster like this.
  12. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Okay, so if my Avant Garde proposal was too wacky, what about +3 GWAM points in Capital? There are two issues I find with Avant Garde:

    -It's 100% outclassed by Hero of the People, no questions asked
    -By this time I already typically have so many GP modifiers that the impact of this one is really low. +34% modifier when you already have +200% is like 11% in practice.

    By providing flat GWAM points, it keeps the tenet focused and synergizes rather than anti-synerizes with GP modifiers, and does not overlap so much with Hero of the People.

    I also think New Deal and Capitalism should be looked at. These policies are just straight up worse versions of what you find in other trees. Capitalism is worse than Industry's finisher and even with the buff is kind of weak (I think the specialist happiness could be moved to Universal Suffrage, and Capitalism gets +1 happiness per city). What if Capitalism provided +5 influence/+5 gold per TR with City-States (that part is just unnecessary in Treaty Organization imo)

    New Deal is worse than Party Leadership even for a tall empire. It should just get a raw number buff to +8 imo, I don't think it would be that bad.

    Lastly, the most important point I want to drive home is that I think the 2 T3 tenet requirement should be 27 policies.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    One this whole you need two tier tenets to win a game, I really dislike it. Chicorbeef's suggestion is a good start but my games usually have a winner before anyone hits 27 policies.
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    27 to win = the vanilla culture victory, in essence (fill out a few trees and build Utopia). Ideologies might as well not be a 'special thing.' Having it tied to tier3, flavor-wise, means that your ideology is 'fully realized' as a force for global cultural control.

    No offense, but you opposed telecom as a gate for culture victory, and now you oppose tenets as a culture victory. You offer no suggestion for fixing it other than to oppose limits on a pre-modern culture victory. Not the most helpful.

    G
     
  15. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Eh, sorry but I disagree, it feels cool to talk about "fully-realizing" your ideology thematically but I think the choice to fully explore secondary policy trees in-game makes for a more interesting game.

    Role-playing options like that should be up to the player to decide if he wants to invest in the ultimate ideology, but I don't prefer the concept as a design decision.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Agree to disagree - BNW redesigned culture to have an end game in ideologies and influence. Bucking that feels wrong and counterintuitive.

    G
     
  17. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I oppose having a gate. I hold this opinion because I don't think anyone has made a convincing case that cultural victories come too early. I recall your own posts about AI games not showing this trend either. Its hard to get 27 policies on Deity before an AI wins, if you aren't Poland or a serious culture civ its hard to do. I can influence all their cultures before they win, and I should win when I influence all their cultures.

    If cultural victories happen too early, just reduce the tourism being produces by something.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Far less easy than simply 'reducing tourism.' A broad stroke makes it impossible. Precision may not make much of a difference.

    G
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Try in king. Your cultural victory may happen unexpectedly.
     
  20. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    Yeah, when I used to play in King/Epic last year prior to Cultural victory having a Wonder component, I would literally never see Diplomatic or Science victories because by being far enough ahead of the AI to achieve those victories you would "accidentally" achieve enough tourism to reach Influential with all Civs before you could build the U.N. or the Apollo Program. When I switched to Emperor/Epic and tweaks were made to the CV requirements that no longer became an issue. Frankly, I don't mind the CV Wonder, but having it trigger with two Tier 3 tenants makes just as much sense.
     

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