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Going for Gold: Ideologies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I don't think that Martial Spirit is the single thing that will allow someone to win a war. I mean it's a 25% buff to attack, which comes at a point in the game when your units should already be nicely promoted with 50% or more CS bonus anyway, especially since you picked war trees throughout the game, presumably, which means this is effectively only making them 10 - 15% stronger and only on attack. So I don't see this as being game breaking if it's useful for more than 1 war; it's a nice and useful buff and I think it should simply be adapted to work similarly across game speeds.
    The balancing issues on Marathon stem from skilled humans still being significantly better than the AI at warfare; you don't fix that by keeping Martial Spirit at 50 turns. If you think that Marathon needs to be better balanced in favor of the AI when it comes to warfare then you should propose changes that help in all situations, not just when the human happens to go Autocracy and picks Martial Spirit.
     
  2. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I don't understand your reasoning to be honest. Everything you say applies to other speeds, except Marathon/Epic get it worse for this policy alone, while the opposite is true for quick. Marathon gets the exact same Morale promotion, Authority's +10% CS works the same on all the dificulties, so does Imperialism's, all the promotions, Great Generals, etc. Why are those things not worse for the gamespeed, then? Because it'd be a nightmare to be so weirdly selective, and right now the only policy not being "fair" is Martial Spirit. Sure, you can keep more units alive, so do I on Epic and you're going to have less promotions than people on Normal as the way I understand it, more turns of fighting, but not really more units to face as costs go up while there's more XP needed to level up. The total XP you can get from the game is likely to be the exact same - you can just collect it earlier but get less levels out of it, but you also have more time to fight the AI.
    Sure, some things work better on slower speeds, but if you think they're so unbalanced and you play on Marathon, which is the most unbalanced of them all, what will it change for you? All the change would do is introduce more consistency for new players or less experienced who enjoy other gamespeeds. The policy is fairly weak anyway so I doubt it's what is skewing your experience so hard when it affects only a single war for you. Last time I took it, my Panzer couldn't even oneshot a Shoshonese Knight anyway. Anti-warmonger buff + Shoshone ability probably made an impact here.
     
  3. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    This is one thing I think people tend to overlook. Yes, it's a 25% buff to one unit. By that stage of the game, we have a lot of units so, while the bonus might appear small for each individual unit, it starts adding up when you look at how that affects an entire front. Once those bonuses start adding up and you master (I'm not at that point yet) how to use flanking and other bonuses as well, you'd have an army that's very very difficult to beat.

    Some balancing issues aren't related to humans being skilled. For some players who play on high difficulty for Epic and Standard, they notice that, in my Marathon games, Wonders go a lot later. Why do the AI prioritize differently on different speeds? I will admit that a skilled human can excel on warfare on slower speeds but trying to balance slower speed is harder than changing a certain value. There are lots of things added to VP that greatly complicates what we see on slower speeds than faster speeds. Do I think Marathon needs balance? Of course I do. However, I lack the time and skills to do so. We've seen the changes implemented that require quite a bit of finetuning on Standard. To adjust values for scaling and do enough tests for slower speeds like Marathon is a large project by itself.

    I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. Let me try my best to summarize what I think about Martial Spirit. I believe it's fine where it is for Marathon Speed and don't require scaling because humans don't need additional bonuses (which will happen if they get more turns out of it) and AIs are going to have a hard time maximizing/timing the bonuses. If you believe it's necessary for Epic (a speed I have limited input on), you can certainly argue for it. Regarding the other promotions and such, I don't mention them as we're discussing Martial Spirit. If we want to include them, then it gets a lot complicated with how they interact with one another and when they become available.

    As for introducing more consistency, then you are asking something that's like balancing slower speeds so they feels just like Standard but slower. That in itself is a big project and tinkering a few numbers isn't going to cut it. In the mod's current state, Marathon is a completely different game from Standard in many aspects and I accept that Standard takes the priority. Increasing the turns you get for Martial Spirit on Marathon Speed is, in my opinion, the opposite direction of adding more consistency.

    Regarding your example, that's a very interesting scenario. You don't happen to have a screenshot of it, do you? I usually destroy many things when I get Tanks and those are against units only an era before tanks.
     
  4. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    That wasn't even my point. I'm fully aware that Martial Spirit doesn't buff just a single unit.
    What I did explain was that it's only 25% and only on attack. Furthermore, I explained that at this stage of the game you're not fielding level 1 units anymore but have a highly promoted army with large combat bonuses already, which means that this 25% on attack is effectively only a 10-15% attack bonus because of all the other bonuses, so it's pretty much comparable to the Conscription buff from Honor (since that one works on both attack and defend) and yet you're not complaining about that being overpowered. You are exaggerating how big of an impact this has; it's a nice and useful bonus but it's not the single thing that will allow the player to win wars. I, as someone who plays Epic usually but also wants to play Marathon from time to time, just want this buff to last for more than a single war, just like on standard speed.
    Marathon being difficult to balance without creating a dedicated project for it is not going to change. Making MS last longer on slower speeds won't balance the speeds, but it will stop unnecessary devaluing of this policy on slower speeds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  5. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    IMHO that tenet shouldn't scale with game speed to have similar power. Right now it boosts the same amount of attacks. If it'd lasts 3 times longer on marathon speed then it would boost 3 times more attacks, so it'd 3 times stronger.
     
  6. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Scaling with number of attacks is not that important, however, so it can't really be said that it would be 3 times stronger. This is because 1) in war you will have a certain strategic element that incorporates building and unit production of your cities as well as other game mechanics that do scale with speed, like number of turns of a peace treaty, which are very relevant for MS and 2) slower speeds, particularly Marathon, are often played on larger maps for various reasons such that the number of cities will usually be higher, the number of units will usually be higher and the amount of unit clashes needed to achieve a certain strategic goal will usually be higher as well and while you can have a larger army attack in the same time (e.g. 1 turn), you cannot speed up the movement (tactical elements) or otherwise mitigate the greater area that is relevant; of course, it would be better to make it partially scale off of map size to compensate for this element, but that may make it too complicated.

    I do, however, recognize that the number of turns of MS doesn't cleanly scale with game speed only, if the goal is to preserve its power. That's why I suggested a compromise (35, 50, 65, 90 turns for the different speeds).
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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  8. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    Then warmongering on slower paces will be even more OP :p
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    We'll see. It's one policy, and consistency is king. We can nerf the total # of turns if needed.

    G
     
  10. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Again and again and again everyone goes Freedom.
    Now the last 3 games in this version..... everyone goes freedom. Theres maybe one in a standard game with 9 civs which didnt go freedom... but all others.... freedom.
    And I can understand why, cause Freedom is superior in nearly all aspects, maybe except warfare. (Even in this case, Freedom have a 50% population to supply cap modifier and give all purchased units full xp. WTF)
     
  11. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    Could you share logs?
     
  12. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Ok, it was already enabled, which one do you need?
     
  13. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    Not for me, I can't read it. It may be helpful for @Gazebo, but it's best to be posted on Github to keep track of that.
     
  14. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    You sure it's not Industry that gives full XP on unit purchase? I could've sworn it was that.
     
  15. Minh Le

    Minh Le King

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    Freedom gives full Xp on purchase not Industry. But in my recent games there is always good mix of Freedom, Order and Autocracy. AI seems to favor Freedom too much in previous patches.
     
  16. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    You mean Order? No, its Freedom. I have no clue why Freedom should be able to field much more soldiers into battle than Order or Autocracy, in reality, it was the complete opposite. Look at Nazi-Germany or Sovjetunion.
    Freedom can everything, cause it buffs everything you will work anyway, no matter which victory type you go. Specialists, GPTI, more trade routes (Order buffs ITR greatly, but didnt give any trade route), Military supply cap, GA, Great People, Council votes. The amount of specialized tenets are very low, while order is more specialized and the amount of general advantages in authocraty is very low.
     
  17. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I don't think that policy (Draft Registration) should be changed, personally. Every Ideology gives some boosts to military and it can hardly be said that Freedom gives the most military boosts; in fact, none of the three Freedom policies that give military boosts are clearly offensive, while for Order and Autocracy you have some very clear offensive policies.
    And if you're gonna start comparing VP to real life, remind me, which RL country has the greatest military in the world, by far?
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I always thought that full XP on unit purchase would be a great fit for Brandenburg, personally.

    I'd be fine with moving full XP unit purchases somewhere -- I think it should exist in some form -- but I don't think Autocracy or Order need it. It feels more like an Imperialism thing.
     
  19. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Supply cap not necessarily means most power, only the most soldiers. And this is in this case its China, a country I would say it's mostly Order. If you say, who's the country with the most soldiers in comparison to its population, that's north Korea, a autocraty.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Ooh I know this one! Secret Canada!

    G
     

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