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Going for Gold: Ideologies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Brandenburg is already really powerful, though, adding this as well would make it completely OP and removing stuff from it first begs the question why this is necessary now; just to nerf Freedom?

    I don't think Freedom should be nerfed at all and let's not forget that it already was nerfed some months ago when Draft Registration was created (before it there was the policy Volunteer Army with the 6 free Foreign Legion units) so let's not overdo it, please.

    Lastly, some posts here made it seem as though the other ideologies don't give any non-military bonuses at all, which is, of course, ridiculous. Just look at Lebensraum, Iron Fist, Military-Industrial Complex, Great Leap Forward, Communism etc.

    Missiles use up supply cap, too, in VP; North Korea has a million foot soldiers, sure, but the US has entire arsenals of high tech missiles and other military machines and technology that NK could only dream of. Just because you have less foot soldiers does not mean your army is smaller.
    Canada doesn't need a great military; one look at their smexy Prime Minister with his Woman Powers and the enemy'd be swooning, running screaming or laughing themselves to death, depending on gender and how culturally sane they are :p
     
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  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    If you guys are seriously going to make an argument from historicity then full XP on purchase makes zero sense.

    The 'Freedom' policies are largely based off of the Anglosphere (Britain, America, former british colonies). Neither Britain nor America had standing armies for a very long time. When the draft was called in Britain there was relatively little fuss, but in Canada/Australia/America there were full-blown riots. People were dead-set against the draft. I'm not sure about other countries, but Canada almost had a constitutional crisis over conscription. Our PM at the time enfranchised women just so that he could push the draft through parliament. Co-opting women's rights so that you can kill more young men. Yay!

    Because they only kept a volunteer reserve army in peacetime, British/American/Canadian troops coming over to fight the world wars were comically underprepared and poorly trained. Canada's real training for WWI was the Somme, and thousands of young men never made it out of boot camp. The US in WWI, for all their wonderful materiel and morale advantages, got their asses handed to them over and over because they were going up against bloodied, veteran German divisions on a front they had held for 3 years. Maybe no amount of training would have saved them, but designing a policy around the idea that prototypical 'Freedom' countries have historically trained their draftees well is.... No.

    Edit:
    Yeah I would remove the +15XP and the free GGeneral to make room.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
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  3. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Yes we can cherry pick time periods to suit our arguments and show off historical knowledge or we can talk about balance.
    Freedom's military was already nerfed not too long ago and I see no reason why it should be nerfed again. Is there actual evidence of warmonger civs suddenly picking Freedom because of its OP military boosts? I think not.

    And as an aside: just because you shoot everyone who riots for whatever reason, or even says a critical word, and thus suppress any future riots, doesn't mean people are happy to do what you tell them to, like join the Soviet / German army. In fact, in WW2 there were heaps of soldiers, mostly from Eastern Europe, who were forced to fight on the side of Nazi-Germany. In the anglosphere, riots or not, the draft worked without any revolution; there are still some western countries even today who use the draft (Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, Austria, even Germany formally still has the draft, though it's not enforced currently but it was just a few years ago).
     
  4. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Really? :nono:
    First, the tenet is called draft registration, it's kinda new for me the USA is recruiting its missile out of population, this is a nonsense arguement.
    Second, a supply cap says nothing about total military power, it only shows how much manpower I can field into a war. I could fill all the supply cap with Spearman and archers, while others use already knights, and this is perfectly represented by supply cap.

    And I never said freedom has too much military power and the others not. But you can also pick freedom if you go for domination victory, atleast half the tenets are beneficial to you.

    And it's still so much irritating why draft registration exists. It pushed my supply limit from 45 to 65 in a 5 city Morocco empire. It gave me 33% more supply limit than all my military buildings together. And it makes military production even more trivial, cause your specialists generate more gold, you have more trade routes which can give more gold, and maintenance free hospitals save you a lot of money too. It ends in simply purchasing all units you need without any disadvantage.
    But changing this tenet alone will not balance freedom with the others, it's simply an extreme irritating op tenet which make it worse.
     
  5. Minh Le

    Minh Le King

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    Warmongering doesnt need supply cap nor the ability to purchase units at that point of the game. This policy is great for very small and tall empire who need to fight a super power in the late game. It has a strong niche but it isnt neccessary in most game.
     
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  6. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    You're conflating the real world and the game; in the game Missiles use supply cap so they are equivalent to "meaty" units. Your second argument is a straw man because no one would make an army of purely Spearmen and Archers if they can build Knights.

    I didn't say that you said that; I said that some people, and that was actually you, said that Freedom already buffs so much non-military stuff, making it sound like the other Ideologies don't, which is an exaggeration.

    Lastly, warmongers have highly promoted units and they are going to want to carry those through the game by upgrading them, which is why the war trees make that easier for them. Freedom, on the other hand, allows more peaceful civs to buy the newest unit at level 4 instead of upgrading their old level 4 or 5 unit for a huge pile of Gold or wasting turns on producing new units for defense. I don't see a problem with that.
     
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  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Agreed. I'm really not on board with the "Freedom is OP" argument. Order is still a favorite of mine, even with Great Leap Forward's recent push back in tier I still think its an amazing tenant, as is the free GP tenant.
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    What about a flat +15XP for purchased units instead?

    So, if you are purchasing units from places with only a barracks/Armory, you can claw back most of the XP you lost on purchase, but you still would come out ahead if you built units from a military academy
     
  9. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I'm against any nerf to Freedom, especially that aspect of Freedom. Again, why does it have to be nerfed? Freedom's military boosts are not OP and a warmonger is clearly going to be better served with Autocracy first, Order second.
     
  10. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    I'm out of date, but in my most recent 11-21-3 game, I chose autocracy first, and then the AI who hated me (everyone by this point except for vassal's) split between freedom and order. The game finished before a couple of AI were able to choose an ideology.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    wouldn’t it be a situational buff? Mercenaries and faith purchases don’t lose XP. So it would be a clawback mechanic on regular purchases, but for authority/zealotry players it would stack more XP.
     
  12. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I don't think I've ever picked Freedom after going Authority and Zealotry is indeed very situational. So yes, for a minority of games it would be a small buff and for the majority of games a nerf.

    = nerf
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Freedom is not over-represented in AI test games. That's all I have to contribute.

    G
     
  14. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Yes they do. If you are unable to build knights, you try to negate this technological disadvantage with numbers. And its exactly what North Korea is doing. They fill their Supply cap/Manpower with a lot of stuff, even its all outdated. They are still using T-54 and T-55. Some reports say, even some T-34 are in duty. Airplaines are in usage, which first fligh was 40 years ago.
    "It sounded like". All I said was, that Freedom is so flexible and buff so many aspects of the game, you would benefit greatly even if you want a domination victory.
    Imperialismn is already doing that. It already reduce the upgrade cost greatly. What stops you from going imperialismn and then Freedom? The extra trade routes, gold from specialists and reduced hospital maintenance cost greatly improve your gold income, compensating the amount of gold you would save by upgrade cost reduction.
    And the greater question is..... WHY does Freedom have to be good even at such aspect? Why shouldnt it have any downside? If you want to buff small empires with small army, simply give them +10 supply cap and +15% Combat strenght in own territory. Done.
     
  15. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Still conflating the real world and the game; if I have trouble with Strategic Resources in the game, I go conquer them or trade them or get a CS alliance; these options are far easier to realize in VP than they are in the real world; I mean seriously, when have you ever had to build a huge Spearman army for lack of Horses? On top of that we now get plenty of SR for free from buildings, so, again, that's a straw man.
    You would also benefit from the other ideologies when it comes to the other victory types. And if you want to go for Domination then Order or Autocracy is going to make that easier for you than Freedom will, just as it should be (game balance wise; not talking about the real world).
    Nothing "stops me" from doing anything. But if I want to conquer the world and already started that way, picking war trees since early game, then I'm not gonna pick the Ideology that is least geared for that. I want to maximize the benefits I get from warmongering and Freedom is not the optimal choice for that, obviously.

    And the fact that Freedom CAN give Gold from Specialists (it's a Tier 2 tenet so you won't necessarily pick it and in my current game I probably won't pick it) doesn't mean you have to spend it on units. A Freedom civ is more likely to want to invest that into buildings / diplo units and trade deals than into upgrading units (especially since that would be far more efficient).

    So, I ask again: where is the evidence that Freedom is a better Ideology for Domination victory than the other two??
     
  16. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    This makes it even better, instead saving gold for only ONE task, you get gold and can spend it wherever you want.
    I said, freedom still gives you plenty of benefits, even if you want to go domination, but I never said its better than the other 2 ideologies in warfare.
    Lets look how many of the tenets would benefit you if you go for warfare:
    Arsenal of Democracy: +15% production to ALL military units, (Total War give +25% but only for land and not to sea units), and Influence to CS if using GPs, something you will do also as warmonger civ
    Avant Garde: More GP generation and less unhappiness by boredom. As said, you will generate GP even as warmonger and less unhappines is benefitial to everyone (but I agree, with a lot of puppets its a bit less useful than with core cities only)
    Capitalismn: Less unhappiness by specialists and gold from them. Your cities, especially your puppets will use a lot of them, so its defenitly good for everyone
    Civil Society: Less food consumption of specialists, useful for everyone
    Covert action: Questionable if this is really helpful, but may help in sustaining CS alliances while focusing on other aspects
    Creative Expression: 8 more culture per city, questionable if this is really helpful
    Draft Registration: An increase of 25-33% of your supply cap is.... yeah, helpful in any way, if you go for tribute or for demanding, or for even greater, faster invasions... no matter what, this is extremly helpful
    Economic Union: You gain 2 more trade routes and more gold to civs with same ideology. Iam sure in this state of the game, you will have already vasalls, and thanks to always same ideology and doubled influence, those make a great target for your trade units
    Media Culture: 20% Culture by Stadiums and more happiness, anybody benefits of it
    New Deal: Iam sure even warmonger will have GPTI, or those which get conquered by you, definitly benefitial
    Space Procurements: Yeah, only good thing is the +10% science thing, still better than Cult of personality, which is in my eyes completly useless
    Their finest Hour: +25% production to air units, and access to a B17-Bomber with 8 range and free city attack promotion, while Air Supremacy also gives +25% production to Air units, but give access to the 6 tile range Zero, which is more a defending unit. Additionally, The finest Hour is only tier 2, while Air Supremacy is a tier 3 tenet. In this case, the freedom ideology is much better than the autocracy ideology.
    Transnationalismn: You will have went for imperialismn, and this will give your puppets atleast 50% of the benefits of your corporation, its benefitial for everyone, even its not really that great.
    Treaty Organization: its atleast +4 votes in congress, but hard to tell if its benefitial, its a similar, but more friendly way than Tyranny
    Univeral Healtcare
    : Hospital for free, even in puppets, no maintenance and culture by growth, definitly worth
    Universal suffrage: Start of a GA and and longer lasting GA + more happiness. GA is always benefitial, and a great combination with Hero Warship, or with Aztecs and Persian UA.
    Urbanization: More food by farms etc. helpful for everyone

    I count 2 extremly helpful tenets for Domination, Draft Registration and Their finest Hour. Also 11 helpful tenets and only 4 with questionable result, but still none of them is completly useless.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Dude, Air Supremacy is awesome. That's all.

    G
     
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  18. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Right, because you don't get massive amounts of Gold conquering cities with war trees....oh wait. /s
    First of all, it's weird how you got hung up earlier on the Gold saved by free Hospitals from Freedom but now say nothing of the even larger amount of Gold saved from free Airports from Air Supremacy. That this also massively benefits a civ for warfare is also clear; it even allows you to have a much smaller army because you can instantly fly your units around all of your empire once you pick it.

    Other than that: Good, we agree, Freedom isn't better for Domination Victory than the other two ideologies. So why should it be nerfed? You don't ask for nerfing Order's policies because they help with Science Victory or Autocracy because they help with Diplo Victory. Every Ideology should give bonuses to different things to allow the player to react and adapt to a changing environment; they should also have strengths and weaknesses, relative to one another, but all of this is already true. Freedom is the worst Ideology for Domination Victory (the fastest victory type), which is its main weakness and has strengths to compensate for that.
     
  19. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    If you are warmongering, an attack bomber with greater range, much more damage to units and cities, a free promotion towards city bombing at a level 2 tenet makes much more sense than a defensive figter with a -25% dmg against units/cities at a level 3 tenet. Independently if Air Supremacy is good, before you reach a lvl 3 tenet with autocracy, you can build an airfield by tech in the necessary city and bomb enemies already with a superior bomber, while you have to wait 3 more policies and get only a defending unit as attacking civilization.
    Cause Freedom is so flexible, you can use it for all victory types, cause it buffs everything you will work anyway. It has 13 helpful tenets, even if you go for warmongering, while you say, freedom is the worst you can pick for domination.
    How many helpful tenets does autocraty have to achieve a CV or DV? Something freedom is normally the best choice? I see only 2 tenets which really help towards a CV, and those are so irrational to me, never thinking about in using autocracy as an ideology to reach a CV.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The Zero is a very strong air supremacy unit - they can clear the skies for you so you can bomb indiscriminately.

    G
     

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