Going for Gold: ITRs vs ETRs

[Stalker0]

Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

This thread will debate Internal Trade Routes vs External Trade Routes.

The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Important Notes:

1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.

 

[CrazyG]

This question should also ask about balance between trade routes to other civs, and trade routes to city states.

On high difficulties I really dislike how much science you get from trade routes in the early game. A single trade route can more than double my science, I don't even consider internal trade routes. I have had games that were going terribly, but a neighbor sent me a trade route giving me 10 science a turn. It feels wrong.

 

[Chandler]

I might be playing wrong, but I almost never use ITRs. Have you considered switching some of the yields between them? Let's say:

ITRs give / AND some to the city you sent your TR.
ETRs give and to the origin city, but not .

Or would that be too much for the ITRs?

 

[ElliotS]

ITRs are much less useful, but they're not useless. They can be used early for wonders or getting new cities set up, mid game to power your capital and late game if you're sanctioned.

If ITRs were as good as ETRs it would make sanctioning worse, diplomacy less important and increase potency of snowballing. (Part of why games are so close is that ETRs can help your out a lot if you're behind or influential.

 

[Stalker0]

This is a scenario where difficulty level has a huge impact on the balance. At the highest difficulties, I imagine ETRs are absolutely dominant, as the yields you get from those diety AIs is enormous.

At King and Emperor levels its still quite good, but a lot more tame. Personally I find the balance pretty good. The production bonus from ITRs is pretty solid, and since it now helps distress it does have a secondary advantage as well.

 

[Gazebo]

I think a cap on science/culture from routes based on era makes sense - perhaps Era value + 3? (So 3 in Ancient, 4 in Classical, etc.).

G

 

[Stalker0]

I think a cap on science/culture from routes based on era makes sense - perhaps Era value + 3? (So 3 in Ancient, 4 in Classical, etc.).

G

That would have a tremendous imbalance though on higher difficulties would it not? It seems that players need those bonuses to stay competitive with the AI.

 

[tu_79]

This question should also ask about balance between trade routes to other civs, and trade routes to city states.

On high difficulties I really dislike how much science you get from trade routes in the early game. A single trade route can more than double my science, I don't even consider internal trade routes. I have had games that were going terribly, but a neighbor sent me a trade route giving me 10 science a turn. It feels wrong.

I don't dare to say it's imbalanced, but you're right in that a better question is how does trade routes towards city states compare to trade routes towards majors, and the answer will depend heavily on the difficulty level.

 

[CrazyG]

I just find it weird that I'm building trade routes for science and culture, but not gold. 2 gold is really insignificant compared to the 8 science 2 culture. I probably have about 8 science and 8 culture from not the trade route.

I don't dare to say it's imbalanced, but you're right in that a better question is how does trade routes towards city states compare to trade routes towards majors, and the answer will depend heavily on the difficulty level.

On Deity By about industrial era, I find the culture from majors insignificant. I'm likely only 1 policy behind the leader. In order to get more culture than you would get from a city state ally, whoever I trade with needs to have 3 policies more than I do. The science can be higher or lower depending on tourist influence and what techs you research (you can have more techs than someone and still get science if they have techs you don't).

 

[Gazebo]

That would have a tremendous imbalance though on higher difficulties would it not? It seems that players need those bonuses to stay competitive with the AI.

It may actually make deity easier in the early game, though, oddly enough.

G

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I find my self not using Externals till at least Medieval Era as you don't get enough Yields our of them. They just can't match the 8 Production Internals give. I play King / Emperor.

 

[Stalker0]

Just to show some late game notes from my current game. Its on Emperor, Atomic Era, and I am starting to shift into auto win territory. So these would be "weak ETRs" in general. I have not focused on tourism so we are in the 5% growth bonus category.

Most of my ETRs to other civs are giving ~12 GPTs, 5% growth (would be so wonderful if the screen could tell you this), +4 science, +0 culture".

ITRs: ~23 food OR ~20 Production.

 

[Edaka]

Most of my ETRs to other civs are giving ~12 GPTs, 5% growth (would be so wonderful if the screen could tell you this), +4 science, +0 culture".

Second that. That would be a significant quality of life improvement. Perhaps something @Infixo may wanna take a look at in the scope of his Filters in Trade Route Overview mod?