tu_79
Deity
Oh. So we'll have to wait until we can produce a great prophet before usurping a religion.
Going for Gold: Pantheons
- Thread starter Stalker0
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ElliotS
Warmonger
As it is right now if you make a GP and then take a religion you can't enhance with that GP. You can only plant as a sacred site. Can't even spread.
Unless you're confirming that taking over a religion while you already have a religion has no special consequences, then in that case: Yes.
tu_79
Deity
I thought this could be the case. Anyways, I think I'd still wait until I produce the great prophet so I don't waste my faith points. Better a Holy site than nothing.
ElliotS
Warmonger
I mean if you're close, then sure. But if it's 20 more turns then just taking the city and ditching the faith is the best choice. Your 9 yields from the tile won't compare to the yields you'd lose in the meantime.
Sounds like it would add some interesting gameplay choices.
What if you we change the forumula for the cost of prophets. If you control at least one holy city, it costs an extra 300 faith. But we change it so that prophet #s 2,3,4 etc cost 300 less than they currently do.
If you found your own religion, you have no change. However if you conquer a holy city, you have to pay more. Numbers could be tweaked.
If you found your own religion, you have no change. However if you conquer a holy city, you have to pay more. Numbers could be tweaked.
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I think just resetting your faith to zero when you change your nation's 'official religion' makes sense to me. You've suddenly switched out beliefs, whatever 'faith' you had in your previous deity/ies is now gone.
G
G
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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Or just add a prophet cost to your next (first) prophet? Otherwise, AI who has been hoarding faith, didn't buy missionaries/rel. buildings in their already converted cities and conquers a holy city will be hurt while a player will know what he should first do.
ElliotS
Warmonger
AI hording faith? lol
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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I guess you're right, it's a good solution then
Yeah the AI doesn't hoard faith until Industrial. Even then, they spend it like it's going out of style.
G
Not sure if this has been brought up before, but God of the Sea seems rather difficult to found with. I'm in a Polynesia game where I felt I had a rather ideal setup to found with it but it took quite a while and I ended up just barely grabbing the last religion at turn 104ish (standard/ standard/ immortal). By the time I founded I believe I had something like 11-12 fish/atoll tiles being worked and 7-8 cities who typically went monument/shrine in an effort to found.
I think the main difficulty is the delay in getting fishing boats created. I was thinking that it might be good to slightly tweak God of the Sea's per-city bonus from +3 food to something like +1 faith and food to help offset the delay in getting faith from fish. Or perhaps make the +1 faith from fish not require fishing boat improvement so that it is available once the tile is revealed?
I think the main difficulty is the delay in getting fishing boats created. I was thinking that it might be good to slightly tweak God of the Sea's per-city bonus from +3 food to something like +1 faith and food to help offset the delay in getting faith from fish. Or perhaps make the +1 faith from fish not require fishing boat improvement so that it is available once the tile is revealed?
LukaSlovenia29
Emperor
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I agree, it's quite hard to found with God of sea, unless you're playing vs. all-warmonger-lineup which delays AI founding, but that leaves you vulnerable since you're having to rush fishing, which delays horsemen/spearmen.
God of the Sea is still 3 yield in (almost) every city with no investment and strong scaling with territory. It is a great option for any coastal progress game if you have another source of faith, such as faith luxuries, monopoly bonuses or natural wonders. Even if you don't, you can still found by committing to shrines in multiple cities. Overall, I think it is fine where it is and that the difficulty in founding is balanced by its overall very strong yields.
Grabbl
Prince
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I agree with that. Also, it's not impossible to found with it, you just need to take fishing boats early (maximum 3rd tech).
tu_79
Deity
And build and purchase working boats before workers.
LukaSlovenia29
Emperor
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In my experience, having to pick Trapping&Fishing as my 2nd and 3rd techs really screws up (my) gameplans when playing on higher difficulties, because it means I have to delay my armies for at least 15-20 turns (often more, since I usually don't have enough money to buy all the needed workboats, but instead have to build them), and that can have grave consequences. It also delays wells, councils, most early wonders etc.
I'd prefer if God of Sea gave less/no food to coastal cities (if you have sea resources, you'll by default have enough food immediately, and then when lighthouses/harbours come online), and instead gave an amount of faith to coastal cities and/or sea resources (without having to be improved), while the added benefit (currently +1 production) would remain upon improvement of sea resources.
I'd prefer if God of Sea gave less/no food to coastal cities (if you have sea resources, you'll by default have enough food immediately, and then when lighthouses/harbours come online), and instead gave an amount of faith to coastal cities and/or sea resources (without having to be improved), while the added benefit (currently +1 production) would remain upon improvement of sea resources.
Well God of Sea can be used if you go war with navy instead of land units. If you Rush towards Sailing - you have high chances to get Great Lighthouse, build 8 ships and conquer couple of coastal cities. But God of Sea is sure more about peaceful start.
On the other hand i have to say that i overall like the idea of faith from unimproved resources instead of improvements a lot. In my opinion most of pantheons that provide faith rom resources would be better to work that way, God of Sea included. it is just very balanced.
In my last game as Siam on Emperor, when I took God of Sea I barely found a religion, building monument -> shrine in first 2 cities, and shrine -> monument in rest 3 cities. With other pantheon and similar build order, I don't have any problem founding a religion.
Grabbl
Prince
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It's right that you neglect your army, but usually you have water around in at least one direction, so you are also less vulnerable. And on the way, you get Archers who are of course not the dominant unit of the era, but at least you don't need to build warriors instead, and archers can defend well against barbarians before horseman come online. And at least in my games, I usually don't build an early worker with God of the Sea, as I'll have not much to improve anyway (my cities want to work the Sea resources after all, and delaying Husbandry / Mining etc has this side effect also), that already frees production for work boats.
All in all, I would not change the pantheon, as it severely accelerates your start via the food and requires some investment, but doesn't lack strength at all after that. And it synergizes well with both Progress and Tradition, because of the faster civilian unit building in Progress and the possibility to basically work a specialist for free in ancient era for Tradition.
For my own experiences, I had both games where I couldn't found with God of the Sea (but usually because I also needed Mining, Bronze Working etc. early on), and games where I founded first with it (on Immortal). That's why I don't see any severe balance problems there.
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